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Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2014 15:42:40 -0200
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Subject: Re: [lojban] [oz] {lo prenu cu cmamau lo makcu}
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
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On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 1:29 PM, Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis <
felipeg.assis@gmail.com> wrote:

> The full sentence is
>   {lo prenu cu cmamau lo makcu poi dy ke'a se slabu}.
> {lo prenu} refers to what turns out to be three Munchkins and the Witch o=
f
> the North, and dy is Dorothy.
>
> The plausible interpretation is of course distributive,
>   {ro lo prenu cu cmamau ro lo makcu}.
>

I wouldn't interpret it that way. My interpretation is that for the
purposes of this comparison all the referents of "lo prenu" are essentially
the same size and count as one thing, all the referents of "lo makcu poi
..." are essentially the same size and count as one, and the former is
smaller than the latter. (This could be called a generic reading, or
"myopic singularization".) I very much doubt that the intention of such a
sentence is to make a cross product comparison of ro vs ro.


> But, if predicates are to be defined on plural variables, shouldn't the
> original sentence mean that the bunch of prenu is, collectively, smaller
> than the bunch of makcu?
>

That's an unlikely reading just because comparing people's sizes is more
common than comparing groups of people's sizes. If instead of "cmamau" the
predicate used was "fewer" ("klanyme'a"?) then the group reading would be
the one that makes more sense, since a single person doesn't have any such
obvious quantity to compare as the cardinality of a group.

Is the translation wrong? Or is the sentence ambiguous? If so, how to
> unambiguously convey the collective interpretation?
>

To convey a comparison of the groups physical sizes I would say "lo prenu
gunma cu cmamau lo gunma be lo makcu poi ..."

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 1:29 PM, Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:felipeg.assis@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">felipeg.as=
sis@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>The full sentence=
 is<br></div>=A0 {lo prenu cu cmamau lo makcu poi dy ke&#39;a se slabu}.<br=
></div>
<div>{lo prenu} refers to what turns out to be three Munchkins and the Witc=
h of the North, and dy is Dorothy.<br>

<br>The plausible interpretation is of course distributive,<br>=A0 {ro lo p=
renu cu cmamau ro lo makcu}.<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><di=
v>I wouldn&#39;t interpret it that way. My interpretation is that for the p=
urposes of this comparison all the referents of &quot;lo prenu&quot; are es=
sentially the same size and count as one thing, all the referents of &quot;=
lo makcu poi ...&quot; are essentially the same size and count as one, and =
the former is smaller than the latter. (This could be called a generic read=
ing, or &quot;myopic singularization&quot;.) I very much doubt that the int=
ention of such a sentence is to make a cross product comparison of ro vs ro=
.</div>
<div>=A0=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>But, =
if predicates are to be defined on plural variables, shouldn&#39;t the orig=
inal sentence mean that the bunch of prenu is, collectively, smaller than t=
he bunch of makcu?<br>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That&#39;s an unlikely reading=
 just because comparing people&#39;s sizes is more common than comparing gr=
oups of people&#39;s sizes. If instead of &quot;cmamau&quot; the predicate =
used was &quot;fewer&quot; (&quot;klanyme&#39;a&quot;?) then the group read=
ing would be the one that makes more sense, since a single person doesn&#39=
;t have any such obvious quantity to compare as the cardinality of a group.=
</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Is the =
translation wrong? Or is the sentence ambiguous? If so, how to unambiguousl=
y convey the collective interpretation?<br>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>To convey a comparison of the =
groups physical sizes I would say &quot;lo prenu gunma cu cmamau lo gunma b=
e lo makcu poi ...&quot;=A0</div><div><br></div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorx=
es</div>
<div><br></div><div>=A0</div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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