Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of felipeg.assis@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4001:c05::229 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4001:c05::229;
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <52C9939B.2070705@gmx.de>
References: <CALMa68ombeqmg8H=zCOv5Of3ZOY+ZSLKAK8Mas+WBRTmJMDx6w@mail.gmail.com>
	<52C9939B.2070705@gmx.de>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2014 16:30:16 -0200
Message-ID: <CALMa68o5X_rRkPh1-4xDBrgLoWq7YNkoZdE++zUkNtm2t-j2sw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] [oz] Assorted translation questions
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Felipe_Gon=E7alves_Assis?= <felipeg.assis@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1134b50eb7cbbf04ef3d5521
X-Spam_score: 0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

--001a1134b50eb7cbbf04ef3d5521
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

ki'e selpa'i

Just one more point about item 1:


On 5 January 2014 14:17, selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de> wrote:

>
>  Chapter 1
>>
>> 1. {lo zd=C4=81ni cu k=C4=81ndi gi'e gr=C5=B3si kei du'i tu'a ro dr=C4=
=81ta};
>>
>>
>> Why the {tu'a}? To me, it is quite normal for dunli1 and dunli2 to be
>> simple objects.
>>
>
> This topic is one of my specialties. :D
>
> I use BAI in such a way that whenever their source predicate has a sumti
> place that could integrate the main bridi, then they will do so (I
> explained the same thing in the {to'e ri'a} thread).
>
> {du'i} is one such BAI. I define it thus:
>
> broda du'i X ~=3D X dunli lo su'u broda
>
> So, I would say, for example:
>
>    (1) do bajra du'i lo nu lo tirxu cu bajra
>        "Your run is like that of a tiger."
>
> It is seldom the case that a concrete object is {dunli} to an abstraction=
,
> although it is not impossible. But usually, replacing the X in the above
> equation with a concrete object will create "non-sense". But we can use
> {tu'a X} when we don't want to specify the full abstraction, or when it's
> obvious.
>
>    (2) do bajra du'i tu'a lo tirxu
>        "You run like a tiger [runs]"
>
> The expansion of this {tu'a X} is almost always {lo nu X no'a}, which
> correspsonds to the English in []-brackets in (2).
>
>
Fair enough. It is a nice idea.

I personally don't treat the event described by a bridi so much more
specially than its other constituents. As you seem to imply, the main bridi
can't always fit a sumti place from the source predicate; {bau} comes to my
mind.

In my style, two important constituents of the main bridi would fill sumti
places of the source predicate, that is, lo zdani and lo ka kandi gi'e
grusi. This is not true of your tiger example, where the dunli3 couldn't be
exactly lo ka bajra, and admittedly there might be good reason to compare
the events instead of the runners.

In any case, I will give your idea some more consideration through future
experience.


By the way, it just occurred to me that the original sentence should have a
{vau} instead of the {kei}, right? Putting it on the errata.

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--001a1134b50eb7cbbf04ef3d5521
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>ki&#39;e selpa&#39;i<br><br></div>Just one more point=
 about item 1:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote">On 5 January 2014 14:17, selpa&#39;i <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:seladwa@gmx.de" target=3D"_blank">seladwa@gmx.de</a>&gt;</span> wrot=
e:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Chapter 1<br>
<br>
1. {lo zd=C4=81ni cu k=C4=81ndi gi&#39;e gr=C5=B3si kei du&#39;i tu&#39;a r=
o dr=C4=81ta};<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
Why the {tu&#39;a}? To me, it is quite normal for dunli1 and dunli2 to be<b=
r>
simple objects.<br>
</div></blockquote>
<br>
This topic is one of my specialties. :D<br>
<br>
I use BAI in such a way that whenever their source predicate has a sumti pl=
ace that could integrate the main bridi, then they will do so (I explained =
the same thing in the {to&#39;e ri&#39;a} thread).<br>
<br>
{du&#39;i} is one such BAI. I define it thus:<br>
<br>
broda du&#39;i X ~=3D X dunli lo su&#39;u broda<br>
<br>
So, I would say, for example:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(1) do bajra du&#39;i lo nu lo tirxu cu bajra<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;Your run is like that of a tiger.&quot;<br=
>
<br>
It is seldom the case that a concrete object is {dunli} to an abstraction, =
although it is not impossible. But usually, replacing the X in the above eq=
uation with a concrete object will create &quot;non-sense&quot;. But we can=
 use {tu&#39;a X} when we don&#39;t want to specify the full abstraction, o=
r when it&#39;s obvious.<br>

<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(2) do bajra du&#39;i tu&#39;a lo tirxu<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;You run like a tiger [runs]&quot;<br>
<br>
The expansion of this {tu&#39;a X} is almost always {lo nu X no&#39;a}, whi=
ch correspsonds to the English in []-brackets in (2).<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Fair enough. It is a nice idea.<br><br=
>I personally don&#39;t treat the event described by a bridi so much more s=
pecially than its other constituents. As you seem to imply, the main bridi =
can&#39;t always fit a sumti place from the source predicate; {bau} comes t=
o my mind.<br>
<br></div><div>In my style, two important constituents of the main bridi wo=
uld fill sumti places of the source predicate, that is, lo zdani and lo ka =
kandi gi&#39;e grusi. This is not true of your tiger example, where the dun=
li3 couldn&#39;t be exactly lo ka bajra, and admittedly there might be good=
 reason to compare the events instead of the runners.<br>
<br>In any case, I will give your idea some more consideration through futu=
re experience.<br><br><br></div><div>By the way, it just occurred to me tha=
t the original sentence should have a {vau} instead of the {kei}, right? Pu=
tting it on the errata.<br>
<br></div><div>mu&#39;o<br>mi&#39;e .asiz.<br></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http:=
//groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out=
">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br />

--001a1134b50eb7cbbf04ef3d5521--