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Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2014 22:16:52 -0200
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Subject: Re: [lojban] [oz] Use of elidable {cu}
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Felipe_Gon=E7alves_Assis?= <felipeg.assis@gmail.com>
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On 6 January 2014 20:22, selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de> wrote:

> la .asiz. cu cusku di'e
>
>  E.g.,
>>
>> (1) {lo zd=C5=95ni cu pu se cintypu'i}
>> (2) {la nakf=C5=95mti .x=C4=8Dnris. cu no roi cm=C4=9Bla}
>>
>
> These two are truly stylistic choices, but there is an advantage to using
> {cu} before TENSE+selbri. It makes it less likely to accidently say
> something like the following (at least I assume that's true):
>
>    lo nu broda pu cinri
>    ! "The event of brodaing in the past is interesting."
>
> Using {cu} before {pu} is necessary there to prevent the accidental
> slipping of the {pu} into the abstraction. So maybe that's one reason to
> use {cu} even when it's not necessary: to be less likely to forget it whe=
re
> it must be used.
>
>
On 6 January 2014 20:36, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 8:22 PM, selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>>
>>    lo nu broda pu cinri
>>    ! "The event of brodaing in the past is interesting."
>>
>
> Actually it's even worse than that, it's just a sumti: "the brodaing in
> the past type of interesting thing."
>


I just checked the parse. This completely breaks my mental grammar! I feel
that the natural place of tenses is just before the selbri, and anywhere
else they ought to be followed by either a sumti or {ku}. It is so much
simpler to add a {ku} whenever we want an out of place tense. I have little
hope that the grammar be reviewed, but don't you feel the same?

It only baffles me more that it works differently for negation. Am I safe
to omit {cu} whenever there is a {na}?

The actual answer to your question is this: What happens when you erase all
> the spaces from the text? The answer to this question will reveal why the=
re
> are {cu} in seemingly unnecessary places. To name just one general exampl=
e
> ({nu} is by far not the only place where it occurs):
>
> {nu + BY + broda} =3D lujvo (nuBYbroda}
> {nu + BY + cu + broda} =3D abstraction containing a bridi
>
> In other words, leaving out {cu} will make the text parse differently! I'=
m
> very careful with that; one needs to keep in mind that the whole point of
> my orthography is to have full audio-visual isomorphism - the speech stre=
am
> should fully correspond to the string of letters. There are no spaces in
> the speech stream. Everything depends on clusters and stress. Therefore,
> spaces are to be meaningless in writing, too. And my orthography enables
> exactly that: to omit all the spaces. You can either use {cu} to prevent
> the accidental lujvo as in the example above, or you can use a glottal
> stop, like so:
>
> {nu + BY. + broda}
>
> Then, it also cannot parse as a single word.
>
> You will find both methods used in the text.
>
>
That is very reasonable. I still find it much easier to use a glottal stop
after every Cy not followed by another one, since you need it sooner or
later and I just don't have the mental power to evaluate, in practical
time, when it is safe to skip it.


mu'o
mi'e .asiz.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On 6 January 2014 20:22, selpa&#39;i <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:seladwa@gmx.de" target=3D"_blank">seladwa@gmx.de</a>&gt;</span> =
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">la .asiz. cu cusku di&#39=
;e<div class=3D"im"><br>
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
E.g.,<br>
<br>
(1) {lo zd=C5=95ni cu pu se cintypu&#39;i}<br>
(2) {la nakf=C5=95mti .x=C4=8Dnris. cu no roi cm=C4=9Bla}<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
These two are truly stylistic choices, but there is an advantage to using {=
cu} before TENSE+selbri. It makes it less likely to accidently say somethin=
g like the following (at least I assume that&#39;s true):<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0lo nu broda pu cinri<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0! &quot;The event of brodaing in the past is interesting.&quot=
;<br>
<br>
Using {cu} before {pu} is necessary there to prevent the accidental slippin=
g of the {pu} into the abstraction. So maybe that&#39;s one reason to use {=
cu} even when it&#39;s not necessary: to be less likely to forget it where =
it must be used.<br>

<br></blockquote><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote">On 6 January 2014 20:36, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jjllambias@gmail.com=
</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div=
 class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"im"=
>On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 8:22 PM, selpa&#39;i <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:seladwa@gmx.de" target=3D"_blank">seladwa@gmx.de</a>&gt;</span> =
wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0lo nu broda pu cinri<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0! &quot;The event of brodaing in the past is interesting.&quot=
;<br></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Actually it&#39;s even worse th=
an that, it&#39;s just a sumti: &quot;the brodaing in the past type of inte=
resting thing.&quot;=C2=A0</div>
</div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div><br><br></div><div>I =
just checked the parse. This completely breaks my mental grammar! I feel th=
at the natural place of tenses is just before the selbri, and anywhere else=
 they ought to be followed by either a sumti or {ku}. It is so much simpler=
 to add a {ku} whenever we want an out of place tense. I have little hope t=
hat the grammar be reviewed, but don&#39;t you feel the same?<br>
<br></div><div>It only baffles me more that it works differently for negati=
on. Am I safe to omit {cu} whenever there is a {na}?<br></div><div><br></di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">

The actual answer to your question is this: What happens when you erase all=
 the spaces from the text? The answer to this question will reveal why ther=
e are {cu} in seemingly unnecessary places. To name just one general exampl=
e ({nu} is by far not the only place where it occurs):<br>

<br>
{nu + BY + broda} =3D lujvo (nuBYbroda}<br>
{nu + BY + cu + broda} =3D abstraction containing a bridi<br>
<br>
In other words, leaving out {cu} will make the text parse differently! I=
9;m very careful with that; one needs to keep in mind that the whole point =
of my orthography is to have full audio-visual isomorphism - the speech str=
eam should fully correspond to the string of letters. There are no spaces i=
n the speech stream. Everything depends on clusters and stress. Therefore, =
spaces are to be meaningless in writing, too. And my orthography enables ex=
actly that: to omit all the spaces. You can either use {cu} to prevent the =
accidental lujvo as in the example above, or you can use a glottal stop, li=
ke so:<br>

<br>
{nu + BY. + broda}<br>
<br>
Then, it also cannot parse as a single word.<br>
<br>
You will find both methods used in the text.<br>
<br></blockquote><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">That is very reasonab=
le. I still find it much easier to use a glottal stop after every Cy not fo=
llowed by another one, since you need it sooner or later and I just don&#39=
;t have the mental power to evaluate, in practical time, when it is safe to=
 skip it.<br>
<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">mu&#39;o<br>mi&#39;e .asiz.<br></d=
iv></div></div>

<p></p>

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