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[212.227.15.15]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b3si786245eez.0.2014.01.06.16.53.01 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 06 Jan 2014 16:53:01 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of seladwa@gmx.de designates 212.227.15.15 as permitted sender) client-ip=212.227.15.15; Received: from [192.168.2.108] ([93.220.110.203]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx003) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M1n4s-1V6qZz0Htq-00tkbt for ; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 01:53:01 +0100 Message-ID: <52CB4FEE.50906@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 01:53:02 +0100 From: selpa'i User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] [oz] Abstractors References: <52CB2C21.5080902@gmx.de> <52CB3CAF.9070200@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:q6n1zzfxo3CQUDataDAoKPg27snHlupF/MvEmY1ygG7ZetsovV6 A1kFTssU/lHBRLEeNKsj3tVAAXBt3DUcJyOEorYfDUe9DiiokEYmlPKf4/P7F243X+XdmWU tOAQonkqdhl9PW6iAXwusi2hv7p8m7/TyGotc3NvNpFhCPQn478rei6N5fMWVTz2dIutxTN n58QuVvARsfDMoFf6uiZw== X-Original-Sender: seladwa@gmx.de X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of seladwa@gmx.de designates 212.227.15.15 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=seladwa@gmx.de Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 1 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: la .asiz. cu cusku di'e > It depends on what exactly you are trying to say. From your description, > maybe _focus_ is what you want > "It was my trying to open the door (instead of trying to do something > else) that killed him." [...] Content analysis details: (0.1 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (seladwa[at]gmx.de) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid la .asiz. cu cusku di'e > It depends on what exactly you are trying to say. From your description, > maybe _focus_ is what you want > "It was my trying to open the door (instead of trying to do something > else) that killed him." Yes, that sort of thing. > I would go with > {lo nu mi troci lo ka kargau lo vorme kei kau cu rinka lo nu ko'a morsi}, > as I find {kau} after non-question words just perfect for this kind of > thing. That's not bad, apart from having to mention the sumti first in order to attach {kau}. {lo nu troci lo kau se troci be mi} is still so much more verbose, but it's also explicitly stating the situation unlike English, so it's a bit unfair. I think what the English does is actually {lo jai se troci} again. We know that {jai} can be elided in English. lo jai se troci cu rinka lo nu morsi "That which I tried [to bring about] caused him to die." Which is at least comparably succint and about as precise as the original English. > Some would argue that {ba'e} is the correct choice, but I think emphasis > is a whole different thing, just confused with focus because of our > myopic reading of prosody. But that is a whole different story... Actually, I very strongly agree with you that {kau} is right and that {ba'e} is something entirely different. Usually, I use bare {kau} in {du'u}-abstractions, however. I think some people are of the opinion that {kau} is wrong outside of {du'u} and {ka}, but I don't really agree (after all I use {ma kau} at top-level). mi'e la selpa'i mu'o -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. 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