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Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 02:06:19 +0100
From: selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] [oz] {zilzba}
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la .asiz. cu cusku di'e
> The only occurrences of this is:
>
> (1) {lo m=C5=AFdri poi zy ke'a z=C4=9Blzba}
> (2) {z=C4=9Blzba lo t=C5=95nbo jo'u lo j=C4=9Bmca}
> (3) {lo m=C4=8Dlbi d=C4=9Bnju poi ro ke'a z=C4=9Blzba lo cr=C4=9Bno marm=
=C5=95ro}
> (4) {lo m=C4=8Dlbi nold=C4=9B'u poi z=C4=9Blzba lo b=C5=95rda bl=C4=9Bku =
be lo zirx=C5=AFnjme}
> (5) {lo b=C5=95rda st=C4=8Ddu noi z=C4=9Blzba lo so'i p=C4=8Dlji s=C4=8Dn=
ta}

What all of these have in common is that they involve human-made=20
objects, so the idea of {zbasu} is still in the air, even though who=20
built them is made irrelevant by the {zi'o}.

> 1. Isn't {marji} perfect for this sense of "x1 is made of x2"?

It's certainly not wrong.

Maybe we could say that {zilzba} is a hyponym of {marji}.

> 2. Regardless of {marji}, do you, selpa'i, use zil-forms, such as zilzba
> and zilcintypu'i, for plain ontologic economy, for place structure
> convenience, or for something else?

I tend to use {zil-} when the otherwise present sumti place would get in=20
the way. It happens very frequently that {X se dunda fi Z}, using both=20
SE and FA to skip around the completely irrelevant x1 place of dunda.=20
The same applies to {zbasu} and {cintypu'i}. I often find {zil-} a bit=20
ugly, but I seem to like it in {zilzba}. I also tend to call {zil-}=20
"Lojban's true passive", which I don't think is what {se} is. The agent=20
(who tends to be in the x1 place) gets removed entirely from the place=20
structure with {zi'o}, just like in a passive construction.

mi'e la selpa'i mu'o

--=20
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