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Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2014 23:50:49 -0200
Message-ID: <CAO7tK2eNRkYAdoFfeZ0Gu2s4dy+6kYDX-0xUZjmRf0-hnuZuxw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] [oz] Abstractors
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
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On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 9:38 PM, selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de> wrote:

> la .xorxes. cu cusku di'e
>
>> What was it in English? I thought it would be something like "I'll do
>>
>> all I can for you" rather than "I'll make sure everything that can be
>> done for you gets done".
>>
>
> You're right, it's "I'll ask Oz to do all he can for you".
>
> But don't you think it actually results in the same claim? Doing all he
> can can include zukte lo ka gasnu as well, so the question is just whether
> or not to have it as the main selbri. I'm not too attached to the way it
> currently stands, nor do I have any strong preference for either sentence,
> but I see no problem at all with the {gasnu lo jai se kakne} version.


For me, the important difference between zukte and gasnu is that the x1 of
zukte has to be the agent of the x2 event, whereas for gasnu the agent of
x2 is usually someone other than the x1 of gasnu. With gasnu it seems as if
Oz will be asked to make someone else do things for you.


 In any case, I'm just not too happy with "jai". The way I understand it,
>> it is used for sumti raising, i.e. extract an argument from a
>> subordinate bridi in the x1 of a selbri and raise it to become the first
>> argument of the selbri. Here you seem to use it to create an event out
>> of a property?
>>
>
> What things can {se kakne}? Properties.
> What things can {jai se kakne}? Everything, including events. All we know
> is that it appears somewhere inside the abstraction (X jai se kakne ~=
> kakne lo ka co'e X (what's actually happening in the abstraction is {fai}'s
> job to specify)).
>

Yes, but...

Thus, a {jai se kakne} can {se gasnu}.
>
> ro da ka'e jai se kakne
> lo se gasnu ka'e jai se kakne
> lo jai se kakne ka'e se gasnu
> la .oz. cu gasnu lo jai se kakne
>
> Because they are both events.


"gasnu lo jai se kakne" is not impossible, it just doesn't seem to mean
what is wanted. What would be an example of a typical "jai se kakne"? Or
better yet, what would be an example of a jai se kakne that Oz will be
asked to make someone do for you?

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 9:38 PM, selpa&#39;i <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:seladwa@gmx.de" target=3D"_blank">seladwa@gmx.de</a>&gt;</=
span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">la .xorxes. cu cusku di&#39;e<br>
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:s=
olid;padding-left:1ex">
What was it in English? I thought it would be something like &quot;I&#39;ll=
 do<div class=3D"im"><br>
all I can for you&quot; rather than &quot;I&#39;ll make sure everything tha=
t can be<br>
done for you gets done&quot;.<br>
</div></blockquote>
<br>
You&#39;re right, it&#39;s &quot;I&#39;ll ask Oz to do all he can for you&q=
uot;.<br>
<br>
But don&#39;t you think it actually results in the same claim? Doing all he=
 can can include zukte lo ka gasnu as well, so the question is just whether=
 or not to have it as the main selbri. I&#39;m not too attached to the way =
it currently stands, nor do I have any strong preference for either sentenc=
e, but I see no problem at all with the {gasnu lo jai se kakne} version.</b=
lockquote>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>For me, the important difference between=
 zukte and gasnu is that the x1 of zukte has to be the agent of the x2 even=
t, whereas for gasnu the agent of x2 is usually someone other than the x1 o=
f gasnu. With gasnu it seems as if Oz will be asked to make someone else do=
 things for you.=A0</div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,=
204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">
In any case, I&#39;m just not too happy with &quot;jai&quot;. The way I und=
erstand it,<br>
it is used for sumti raising, i.e. extract an argument from a<br>
subordinate bridi in the x1 of a selbri and raise it to become the first<br=
>
argument of the selbri. Here you seem to use it to create an event out<br>
of a property?<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
What things can {se kakne}? Properties.<br>
What things can {jai se kakne}? Everything, including events. All we know i=
s that it appears somewhere inside the abstraction (X jai se kakne ~=3D kak=
ne lo ka co&#39;e X (what&#39;s actually happening in the abstraction is {f=
ai}&#39;s job to specify)).<br>
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, but...</div><div><br></div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width=
:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex">

Thus, a {jai se kakne} can {se gasnu}.<br>
<br>
ro da ka&#39;e jai se kakne<br>
lo se gasnu ka&#39;e jai se kakne<br>
lo jai se kakne ka&#39;e se gasnu<br>
la .oz. cu gasnu lo jai se kakne<br>
<br>
Because they are both events.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>&quot;gasnu l=
o jai se kakne&quot; is not impossible, it just doesn&#39;t seem to mean wh=
at is wanted. What would be an example of a typical &quot;jai se kakne&quot=
;? Or better yet, what would be an example of a jai se kakne that Oz will b=
e asked to make someone do for you?</div>
<div><br></div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</div><div><br></div></div></di=
v></div>

<p></p>

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