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Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 12:23:56 +0100
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Subject: Re: [lojban] [oz] Abstractors
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la .xorxes. cu cusku di'e
> For me, the important difference between zukte and gasnu is that the x1
> of zukte has to be the agent of the x2 event, whereas for gasnu the
> agent of x2 is usually someone other than the x1 of gasnu.

Usually, though it needn't be so. There are several {sez-___-gau} lujvo, 
and the gasnu1 can have a passive/patient role in the gasnu2.

> With gasnu it
> seems as if Oz will be asked to make someone else do things for you.

Okay. To me it doesn't exclude the possibility of him doing something 
himself. Plus, to {gasnu} something is to {zukte lo ka gasnu} it. The 
difference seems small to me. On the one hand, Oz does do most of the 
things himself in the story, like playing all those tricks on them or 
making them believe he'd give them what they wanted. On the other hand, 
that could be described as an act of {gasnu lo nu krici}.

> "gasnu lo jai se kakne" is not impossible, it just doesn't seem to mean
> what is wanted. What would be an example of a typical "jai se kakne"? Or
> better yet, what would be an example of a jai se kakne that Oz will be
> asked to make someone do for you?

The generic {jai se kakne} is {lo se gasnu}, i.e. "bring about that 
which he can bring about". Let's take {lo nu krici lo du'u virnu} as an 
example.

   (a) la .oz. cu kakne lo ka ce'u gasnu lo nu la cinfo cu krici lo du'u 
ri virnu
   (b) la .oz. cu kakne tu'a lo nu la cinfo cu krici lo du'u ri virnu
   (c) lo nu la cinfo cu krici lo du'u ri virnu cu jai se kakne la .oz.
   (d) lo nu la cinfo cu krici lo du'u ri virnu cu jai se kakne la .oz. 
fai lo ka ce'u gasnu ce'u

 From (a) to (c), the event gets extracted from within the property, and 
(d) restates the predicate that connects the extracted event with the 
{kakne} predicate using {fai}. All four sentences should mean the same.

mi'e la selpa'i mu'o

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