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Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 14:24:36 -0200
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Subject: Re: [lojban] [oz] Use of elidable {cu}
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Felipe_Gon=E7alves_Assis?= <felipeg.assis@gmail.com>
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On 7 January 2014 12:50, Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 12:27 PM, Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis <
> felipeg.assis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In
>>
>> http://users.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/hobbies/lojban/grammar/lojban.=
peg.txt
>> (where can I find the file used by camxes?)
>> There is this rule
>>
>> term-1 <- sumti / ( !gek (tag / FA-clause free*) (sumti / KU-clause?
>> free*) ) / termset / NA-clause KU-clause free*
>>
>>
>> I don't have a firm grasp of formal grammars, so correct me if I am wron=
g.
>>
>> 1. This rule is relevant.
>> 2. If we make the KU-clause mandatory, instead of optional, my mental
>> grammar is realized.
>>
>> term-1 <- sumti / ( !gek (tag / FA-clause free*) (sumti / KU-clause
>> free*) ) / termset / NA-clause KU-clause free*
>>
>
> That's one way of dealing with it, although for my taste it has the
> disadvantage of making a terminator non-elidable, which is exceptional.
> Also, because of the silly restrictions on compound tags, you would have =
to
> be very aware of which tags can be combined without ku and which strings =
of
> tags would require ku insertions to make them work.
>
>
I don't see {ku} here as a terminator. To me, {pu ku} is a single entity,
used whenever we want to move {pu} away from the selbri.

With regards to compound tags, don't you have to understand the rules
anyway to get the correct meaning? Can you give an example?


> The way I would rather do it is:
>
> term-1 <- sumti / ( !gek (tag !selbri-1 / FA-clause free*) (sumti /
> KU-clause? free*) ) / termset / NA-clause KU-clause free*
>
> which means that the tag will not be absorbed as a term if it's directly
> followed by a selbri-1 (in which case it will be absorbed by the selbri
> rule),
>
>
That is a mid-ground more appropriate for an eventual proposal. I would
support it.

In production, though, I still prefer to always use {ku}, because I find
{gau se ka'a ko'a} and {bai gau se ka'a ko'a} confusing for the same
reason: I keep expecting the selbri they refer to.

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On 7 January 2014 12:50, Jorge Llamb=EDas <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jjllambias@gmail.com=
</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div=
 class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"im"=
>On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 12:27 PM, Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis <span dir=3D"ltr=
">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:felipeg.assis@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">felipeg.=
assis@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><di=
v><div>In<br><a href=3D"http://users.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/hobbies/l=
ojban/grammar/lojban.peg.txt" target=3D"_blank">http://users.digitalkingdom=
.org/~rlpowell/hobbies/lojban/grammar/lojban.peg.txt</a><br>

(where can I find the file used by camxes?)<br>
There is this rule<br><br>term-1 &lt;- sumti / ( !gek (tag / FA-clause free=
*) (sumti / KU-clause? free*) ) / termset / NA-clause KU-clause free*<br><b=
r><br>I don&#39;t have a firm grasp of formal grammars, so correct me if I =
am wrong.<br>


<br>1. This rule is relevant.<br>2. If we make the KU-clause mandatory, ins=
tead of optional, my mental grammar is realized.<br><br>term-1 &lt;- sumti =
/ ( !gek (tag / FA-clause free*) (sumti / KU-clause free*) ) / termset / NA=
-clause KU-clause free*<br>

</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>That&#39;s o=
ne way of dealing with it, although for my taste it has the disadvantage of=
 making a terminator non-elidable, which is exceptional. Also, because of t=
he silly restrictions on compound tags, you would have to be very aware of =
which tags can be combined without ku and which strings of tags would requi=
re ku insertions to make them work.</div>

<div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don&#39=
;t see {ku} here as a terminator. To me, {pu ku} is a single entity, used w=
henever we want to move {pu} away from the selbri.<br><br>With regards to c=
ompound tags, don&#39;t you have to understand the rules anyway to get the =
correct meaning? Can you give an example?<br>
<br></div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=
</div><div>
The way I would rather do it is:</div><div><br></div><div>term-1 &lt;- sumt=
i / ( !gek (tag !selbri-1 / FA-clause free*) (sumti / KU-clause? free*) ) /=
 termset / NA-clause KU-clause free*<br></div></div>
<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">which means that the tag will not be a=
bsorbed as a term if it&#39;s directly followed by a selbri-1 (in which cas=
e it will be absorbed by the selbri rule),</div><div class=3D"im"><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_extra">

<br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That is a mid-ground=
 more appropriate for an eventual proposal. I would support it.<br><br>In p=
roduction, though, I still prefer to  always use {ku}, because I find {gau =
se ka&#39;a ko&#39;a} and {bai gau se ka&#39;a ko&#39;a} confusing for the =
same reason: I keep expecting the selbri they refer to.<br>
</div><div>=A0<br></div><div>mu&#39;o<br>mi&#39;e .asiz.<br></div></div><br=
></div></div>

<p></p>

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