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From: MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 13:38:25 -0500
Message-ID: <CAHiXx=NnWZhFyLXixxKRkKt1jnx2f411ft-676Tu0-YJcTyqKg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Quoting with ZOI can be ambigious
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I thought {zoi} plus delimiters was only for words, which would exclude
bare punctuation.

stevo


On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 12:58 PM, Wuzzy <almikes@aol.com> wrote:

> TL;DR: Quoting with ZOI can be ambigious. I point out the flaws and show
> how the Reference Grammar does not help here. Then I propose a change=97o=
r
> more precisely: a clarification=97to the grammar which hopefully fixes
> the flaws.
>
> Full text:
> I noticed that you run into trouble when your ZOI quote has trailing
> or leading whitespace, or trailing or leading periods. Also you run
> into trouble if you want to decode a ZOI quote because you can=92t tell
> if the text truly has trailing/leading whitespace/periods or not.
>
> Just for extra clarity: In this e-mail I will make use of the so-called
> logical quotation style so you know exactly what I=92m talking about and
> because the British quotation style is just damn awful.
> Logical quotation style is basically this: All characters which are
> between the quotation marks are quoted. No magic! ;-)
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_mark#Punctuation>
>
> Let=92s go!
> Just look at this:
> What does =93zoi gy..gy=94 quote?
> I could think of these answers:
> (1) =93=94 (empty string (string =3D sequence of characters))
> (2) =93..=94 (two periods)
> (3) =93.=94 (one period)
>
> All three answers seem plausible to me. Remember: according to the
> Reference Grammar, all periods are optional:
> =93Technically, the period is an optional reminder to the reader of a
> mandatory pause that is dictated by the rules of the language;
> because these rules are unambiguous, a missing period can be inferred
> from otherwise correct text. Periods are included only as an aid to
> the reader.=94=97Reference Grammar, chapter 3, section 3.
>
> (1) would be true if both periods are considered to be part of the
> delimeter, therefore, they are part of the Lojban text and not of the
> quoted text.
> (2) would be true if the =93pause periods=94 of Lojban have
> been ommitted. Therefore, the periods must be part of the quoted text.
> (3) is a weird case which could be true if one of the =93pause periods=94
> has been ommited, but not the other one. Therefore, there is one period
> left which is therefore part of the quoted text.
>
> All three possibilities are plausible to me under the rules. But
> under these rules, I can=92t tell which is the correct one.
>
> There is another problem, with whitespace:
> =93zoi gy gy=94 =3D =93=94 or =93 =94?
>
> Here are more examples (look closely at spaces and periods):
> =93zoi gy. .gy=94 =3D =93 =94, =93=94, =93. =94, =93.=94, =93. =94?
> =93zoi gy.Peter Smith.gy=94 =3D =93Peter Smith=94, =93.Peter Smith=94, =
=93Peter Smith.=94,
>                           =93.Peter Smith.=94?
> =93zoi gy. Peter Smith .gy=94 =3D =93Peter Smith=94, =93 Peter Smith=94,
>                             =93Peter Smith =94, =93 Peter Smith =94?
>                             With or without periods?
> =93zoi gy.pdf.gy=94 =3D =93pdf=94, =93.pdf=94, =93.pdf.=94, =93pdf.=94?
> =93zoi gy..pdf.gy=94 =3D =93pdf=94, =93.pdf=94, =93.pdf.=94, =93pdf.=94, =
=93..pdf=94 or even
>                    =93..pdf.=94?
>
> Now here comes the real problem:
> The Reference Grammar does NOT have an answer,
> so any of these answers I suggested could be true.
>
> Here is what the grammar chapter of the Reference Grammar says:
> =93a. If the Lojban word =91zoi=92 (selma'o ZOI) is identified, take the
> following Lojban word (which should be end delimited with a pause for
> separation from the following non-Lojban text) as an opening delimiter.
> Treat all text following that delimiter, until that delimiter recurs
> after a pause, as grammatically a single token (labelled =91anything_699=
=92
> in this grammar). There is no need for processing within this text
> except as necessary to find the closing delimiter.=94
> This text does not explicitly state wheather to write down the periods.
> I only know all periods are optional, leading to the situation
> I pointed out before (pun intended).
> The section on ZO and ZOI is of no help either.
>
> The point I want to make here is that the Reference Grammar does NOT say
> which possiblity to choose. So please don=92t argue about what you think
> would be the correct choice here. There is no correct choice, the
> Reference Grammer does not define these borderline cases at all. Which
> means: It is impossible to reliably quote any string with whitespace or
> a period at the beginning or end.
>
> Since the Reference Grammar is disappointing me here, there must be a
> clear definition for these cases.
>
> I therefore suggest the following rule changes to be applied to the
> Reference Grammar:
> - Written Lojban:
>   - periods are MANDATORY at the following places: Right after the
>     opening delimeter word and right before the closing delimeter word.
>     The mandatory period is considered part of the delimeter.
>   - The period of the opening and closing delimeter may not be merged
>     into one period.
>   And just to be sure:
>   - The quote starts after the period of the opening delimeter.
>   - The quote ends before the period of the closing delimeter.
>   - Everything, even whitespace between those two periods is considered
>     quoted.
> - Spoken Lojban:
>   - The sound of the delimeter word may not appear in the quoted text,
>     no matter if there=92s a glottal stop before or after it.
>
> Here are some valid and invalid examples under these proposed rules:
> =93zoi gy..gy=94                    =3D =93=94. The opening delmeter is =
=93gy.=94,
>                                 the closing delimeter is =93.gy=94.
> =93zoi gy.gy=94                     is an error! 2nd delimeter missing
> =93zoi gygy=94                      is an error! 1st delimeter missing
> =93zoi gy. .gy=94                   =3D =93 =94
> =93zoi gy..pdf.gy=94                =3D =93.pdf=94
> =93zoi gy.pdf.gy=94                 =3D =93pdf=94
> =93zoi gy.Peter Smith.gy.=94        =3D =93Peter Smith=94
> =93zoi gy.Peter Smith.gy=94         =3D =93Peter Smith=94 (note the perio=
d
>                                 AFTER the closing delimeter is still
>                                 optional)
> =93zoi gy.Wuzzy eats Pizza..gy.=94  =3D =93Wuzzy eats Pizza.=94
> =93zoi gy. Peter Smith .gy.=94      =3D =93 Peter Smith =94
> =93zoi lo..lo.lo=94                 =3D =93=94 followed by an article
> =93zoi gy...gy=94                   =3D =93.=94
> =93zoi gy. . .gy=94                 =3D =93 . =94
> =93zoi gy.....gy=94                 =3D =93...=94
>
> Here are some borderline cases:
> =93zoi gy.gy.gy=94 violates the spoken Lojban rule iff the 2nd
>                =93gy=94 has the sound of Lojban=92s =93gy=94.
> =93zoi gy.gy.gy=94 is valid and is =93gy=94 iff the 2nd =93gy=94 has NOT =
the sound
>                of Lojban=92s =93gy=94.
> =93zoi gy.gyrations.gy=94: same as previous ones.
>
> Note the last three cases are borderline cases and should be used with
> care. The pronounciation of the quoted text must be known for this to
> work. While these may be valid, at best such borderline cases are
> avoided by choosing another delimeter. Because you aren=92t going to
> tortue the recipient, aren=92t you? ;-)
>
> That=92s it.
> I have made some research and it seems nobody has pointed out these
> problems before. Anyhow, this looks like serious trouble and
> certainly must be fixed.
> It is embarrassing that I am able to quote more precisely with English
> than with Lojban. ;-) ;-) ;-)
>
> Please say wheather you agree with me in general and wheather you think
> the proposed change is okay. If my proposal or reasoning has flaws in
> is, please point them out.
>
> Greetings!
> --
> Wuzzy
> XMPP: Wuzzy2@jabber.ccc.de
> E-Mail: wuzzy2@mail.ru
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier =
new,monospace">I thought {zoi} plus delimiters was only for words, which wo=
uld exclude bare punctuation.=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-family:courier new,monospace">

<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier new,mon=
ospace">stevo</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote">On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 12:58 PM, Wuzzy <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:almikes@aol.com" target=3D"_blank">almikes@aol.com</a>&gt;=
</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">TL;DR: Quoting with ZOI can be ambigious. I =
point out the flaws and show<br>
how the Reference Grammar does not help here. Then I propose a change=97or<=
br>
more precisely: a clarification=97to the grammar which hopefully fixes<br>
the flaws.<br>
<br>
Full text:<br>
I noticed that you run into trouble when your ZOI quote has trailing<br>
or leading whitespace, or trailing or leading periods. Also you run<br>
into trouble if you want to decode a ZOI quote because you can=92t tell<br>
if the text truly has trailing/leading whitespace/periods or not.<br>
<br>
Just for extra clarity: In this e-mail I will make use of the so-called<br>
logical quotation style so you know exactly what I=92m talking about and<br=
>
because the British quotation style is just damn awful.<br>
Logical quotation style is basically this: All characters which are<br>
between the quotation marks are quoted. No magic! ;-)<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_mark#Punctuation" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_mark#Punctuation</a=
>&gt;<br>
<br>
Let=92s go!<br>
Just look at this:<br>
What does =93zoi gy..gy=94 quote?<br>
I could think of these answers:<br>
(1) =93=94 (empty string (string =3D sequence of characters))<br>
(2) =93..=94 (two periods)<br>
(3) =93.=94 (one period)<br>
<br>
All three answers seem plausible to me. Remember: according to the<br>
Reference Grammar, all periods are optional:<br>
=93Technically, the period is an optional reminder to the reader of a<br>
mandatory pause that is dictated by the rules of the language;<br>
because these rules are unambiguous, a missing period can be inferred<br>
from otherwise correct text. Periods are included only as an aid to<br>
the reader.=94=97Reference Grammar, chapter 3, section 3.<br>
<br>
(1) would be true if both periods are considered to be part of the<br>
delimeter, therefore, they are part of the Lojban text and not of the<br>
quoted text.<br>
(2) would be true if the =93pause periods=94 of Lojban have<br>
been ommitted. Therefore, the periods must be part of the quoted text.<br>
(3) is a weird case which could be true if one of the =93pause periods=94<b=
r>
has been ommited, but not the other one. Therefore, there is one period<br>
left which is therefore part of the quoted text.<br>
<br>
All three possibilities are plausible to me under the rules. But<br>
under these rules, I can=92t tell which is the correct one.<br>
<br>
There is another problem, with whitespace:<br>
=93zoi gy gy=94 =3D =93=94 or =93 =94?<br>
<br>
Here are more examples (look closely at spaces and periods):<br>
=93zoi gy. .gy=94 =3D =93 =94, =93=94, =93. =94, =93.=94, =93. =94?<br>
=93zoi gy.Peter Smith.gy=94 =3D =93Peter Smith=94, =93.Peter Smith=94, =93P=
eter Smith.=94,<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =93.Peter Smith.=94?<br=
>
=93zoi gy. Peter Smith .gy=94 =3D =93Peter Smith=94, =93 Peter Smith=94,<br=
>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =93Peter Smith =94,=
 =93 Peter Smith =94?<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 With or without per=
iods?<br>
=93zoi <a href=3D"http://gy.pdf.gy" target=3D"_blank">gy.pdf.gy</a>=94 =3D =
=93pdf=94, =93.pdf=94, =93.pdf.=94, =93pdf.=94?<br>
=93zoi gy..<a href=3D"http://pdf.gy" target=3D"_blank">pdf.gy</a>=94 =3D =
=93pdf=94, =93.pdf=94, =93.pdf.=94, =93pdf.=94, =93..pdf=94 or even<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=93..pdf.=94?<br>
<br>
Now here comes the real problem:<br>
The Reference Grammar does NOT have an answer,<br>
so any of these answers I suggested could be true.<br>
<br>
Here is what the grammar chapter of the Reference Grammar says:<br>
=93a. If the Lojban word =91zoi=92 (selma&#39;o ZOI) is identified, take th=
e<br>
following Lojban word (which should be end delimited with a pause for<br>
separation from the following non-Lojban text) as an opening delimiter.<br>
Treat all text following that delimiter, until that delimiter recurs<br>
after a pause, as grammatically a single token (labelled =91anything_699=92=
<br>
in this grammar). There is no need for processing within this text<br>
except as necessary to find the closing delimiter.=94<br>
This text does not explicitly state wheather to write down the periods.<br>
I only know all periods are optional, leading to the situation<br>
I pointed out before (pun intended).<br>
The section on ZO and ZOI is of no help either.<br>
<br>
The point I want to make here is that the Reference Grammar does NOT say<br=
>
which possiblity to choose. So please don=92t argue about what you think<br=
>
would be the correct choice here. There is no correct choice, the<br>
Reference Grammer does not define these borderline cases at all. Which<br>
means: It is impossible to reliably quote any string with whitespace or<br>
a period at the beginning or end.<br>
<br>
Since the Reference Grammar is disappointing me here, there must be a<br>
clear definition for these cases.<br>
<br>
I therefore suggest the following rule changes to be applied to the<br>
Reference Grammar:<br>
- Written Lojban:<br>
=A0 - periods are MANDATORY at the following places: Right after the<br>
=A0 =A0 opening delimeter word and right before the closing delimeter word.=
<br>
=A0 =A0 The mandatory period is considered part of the delimeter.<br>
=A0 - The period of the opening and closing delimeter may not be merged<br>
=A0 =A0 into one period.<br>
=A0 And just to be sure:<br>
=A0 - The quote starts after the period of the opening delimeter.<br>
=A0 - The quote ends before the period of the closing delimeter.<br>
=A0 - Everything, even whitespace between those two periods is considered<b=
r>
=A0 =A0 quoted.<br>
- Spoken Lojban:<br>
=A0 - The sound of the delimeter word may not appear in the quoted text,<br=
>
=A0 =A0 no matter if there=92s a glottal stop before or after it.<br>
<br>
Here are some valid and invalid examples under these proposed rules:<br>
=93zoi gy..gy=94 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=3D =93=94. The ope=
ning delmeter is =93gy.=94,<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 the closing=
 delimeter is =93.gy=94.<br>
=93zoi <a href=3D"http://gy.gy" target=3D"_blank">gy.gy</a>=94 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 is an error! 2nd delimeter missing<br>
=93zoi gygy=94 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0is an error! 1st =
delimeter missing<br>
=93zoi gy. .gy=94 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =3D =93 =94<br>
=93zoi gy..<a href=3D"http://pdf.gy" target=3D"_blank">pdf.gy</a>=94 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=3D =93.pdf=94<br>
=93zoi <a href=3D"http://gy.pdf.gy" target=3D"_blank">gy.pdf.gy</a>=94 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =3D =93pdf=94<br>
=93zoi gy.Peter Smith.gy.=94 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=3D =93Peter Smith=94<br>
=93zoi gy.Peter Smith.gy=94 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =3D =93Peter Smith=94 (note the=
 period<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 AFTER the c=
losing delimeter is still<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 optional)<b=
r>
=93zoi gy.Wuzzy eats Pizza..gy.=94 =A0=3D =93Wuzzy eats Pizza.=94<br>
=93zoi gy. Peter Smith .gy.=94 =A0 =A0 =A0=3D =93 Peter Smith =94<br>
=93zoi lo..lo.lo=94 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =3D =93=94 followed by =
an article<br>
=93zoi gy...gy=94 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =3D =93.=94<br>
=93zoi gy. . .gy=94 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =3D =93 . =94<br>
=93zoi gy.....gy=94 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =3D =93...=94<br>
<br>
Here are some borderline cases:<br>
=93zoi <a href=3D"http://gy.gy.gy" target=3D"_blank">gy.gy.gy</a>=94 violat=
es the spoken Lojban rule iff the 2nd<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=93gy=94 has the sound of Lojban=92s =93gy=
=94.<br>
=93zoi <a href=3D"http://gy.gy.gy" target=3D"_blank">gy.gy.gy</a>=94 is val=
id and is =93gy=94 iff the 2nd =93gy=94 has NOT the sound<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0of Lojban=92s =93gy=94.<br>
=93zoi <a href=3D"http://gy.gyrations.gy" target=3D"_blank">gy.gyrations.gy=
</a>=94: same as previous ones.<br>
<br>
Note the last three cases are borderline cases and should be used with<br>
care. The pronounciation of the quoted text must be known for this to<br>
work. While these may be valid, at best such borderline cases are<br>
avoided by choosing another delimeter. Because you aren=92t going to<br>
tortue the recipient, aren=92t you? ;-)<br>
<br>
That=92s it.<br>
I have made some research and it seems nobody has pointed out these<br>
problems before. Anyhow, this looks like serious trouble and<br>
certainly must be fixed.<br>
It is embarrassing that I am able to quote more precisely with English<br>
than with Lojban. ;-) ;-) ;-)<br>
<br>
Please say wheather you agree with me in general and wheather you think<br>
the proposed change is okay. If my proposal or reasoning has flaws in<br>
is, please point them out.<br>
<br>
Greetings!<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">--<br>
Wuzzy<br>
XMPP: <a href=3D"mailto:Wuzzy2@jabber.ccc.de">Wuzzy2@jabber.ccc.de</a><br>
E-Mail: <a href=3D"mailto:wuzzy2@mail.ru">wuzzy2@mail.ru</a><br>
<br>
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</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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