Received: from mail-qe0-f58.google.com ([209.85.128.58]:59845) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1W1hRT-0001ks-EV for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:08:40 -0800 Received: by mail-qe0-f58.google.com with SMTP id 1sf1075696qec.13 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:08:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=hsuSOjLAjfWVgS8X9BEFRcVHm2eXRt4MifFtdxARPK8=; b=JRaFIY1xiSabj9xTxF8Tt3vNbiLuwbEwqSbYx1QBH+3I527FUzJUP+A7m/G6iS/e0C 3S6Tdr5A+wu1+qzQS7WTqoBUOdc2h2t0+DweDKQTr9mU39fu305jv6kZ+1Lp4Ybk+ogL pmLu42cwp3aTeLBMmFPdRVZoRko00dj8aoyhf55a5eb3hzXcT3+boqg0hjT/QF1AS/F9 tpfzhFmdlGl43G3eMPL13+h019EeXv7SjV6mplw8QhhFqe+6EY12Wch0G81M30yidKt7 hEtk0RV7B9c3aV4Bh9nHw/LuIuZRniFa9puzzJ52IDmixjN/gA/ufHYFfpyYU5MIq5/l VfZA== X-Received: by 10.49.59.17 with SMTP id v17mr110710qeq.3.1389380901234; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:08:21 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.16.35 with SMTP id c3ls1612845qed.83.gmail; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:08:20 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.236.125.79 with SMTP id y55mr1090495yhh.53.1389380900686; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:08:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qc0-x233.google.com (mail-qc0-x233.google.com [2607:f8b0:400d:c01::233]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id h4si2218109qch.3.2014.01.10.11.08.20 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:08:20 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::233 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c01::233; Received: by mail-qc0-f179.google.com with SMTP id e16so2032621qcx.24 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:08:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.49.119.66 with SMTP id ks2mr593749qeb.14.1389380900468; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:08:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.96.161.99 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:08:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20140110185840.22249c17@aol.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 14:08:20 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Quoting with ZOI can be ambigious From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::233 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bdc13dc07bef204efa27350 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --047d7bdc13dc07bef204efa27350 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree that the problem is real, but I don't agree that it's "serious trouble" After all, in 30 years, it hasn't been an issue. Nonetheless, your solution looks fine from the point of view of disambiguation, but I doubt seriously that anyone will care to use it, because of the onerousness of having to use it for the 99.999% of case where it doesn't actually matter (i.e. the same kind of reasoning (to an even stronger degree) that led to a decision of using be-bei-be'o instead of a simpler be SUMTI SUMTI SUMTI be'o construction). If a person would really be that concerned about a leading space, for example, they might resort to a circumlocution like lu= 'e sepli bu joi zoi zoi Peter Smith zoi lu'u (not 100% sure this is correct), which would also keep much of the speech/text isomorphism not usually found in zoi constructions anyhow. -gejyspa On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 1:38 PM, MorphemeAddict wrote: > I thought {zoi} plus delimiters was only for words, which would exclude > bare punctuation. > > stevo > > > On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 12:58 PM, Wuzzy wrote: > >> TL;DR: Quoting with ZOI can be ambigious. I point out the flaws and show >> how the Reference Grammar does not help here. Then I propose a change=97= or >> more precisely: a clarification=97to the grammar which hopefully fixes >> the flaws. >> >> Full text: >> I noticed that you run into trouble when your ZOI quote has trailing >> or leading whitespace, or trailing or leading periods. Also you run >> into trouble if you want to decode a ZOI quote because you can=92t tell >> if the text truly has trailing/leading whitespace/periods or not. >> >> Just for extra clarity: In this e-mail I will make use of the so-called >> logical quotation style so you know exactly what I=92m talking about and >> because the British quotation style is just damn awful. >> Logical quotation style is basically this: All characters which are >> between the quotation marks are quoted. No magic! ;-) >> >> >> Let=92s go! >> Just look at this: >> What does =93zoi gy..gy=94 quote? >> I could think of these answers: >> (1) =93=94 (empty string (string =3D sequence of characters)) >> (2) =93..=94 (two periods) >> (3) =93.=94 (one period) >> >> All three answers seem plausible to me. Remember: according to the >> Reference Grammar, all periods are optional: >> =93Technically, the period is an optional reminder to the reader of a >> mandatory pause that is dictated by the rules of the language; >> because these rules are unambiguous, a missing period can be inferred >> from otherwise correct text. Periods are included only as an aid to >> the reader.=94=97Reference Grammar, chapter 3, section 3. >> >> (1) would be true if both periods are considered to be part of the >> delimeter, therefore, they are part of the Lojban text and not of the >> quoted text. >> (2) would be true if the =93pause periods=94 of Lojban have >> been ommitted. Therefore, the periods must be part of the quoted text. >> (3) is a weird case which could be true if one of the =93pause periods= =94 >> has been ommited, but not the other one. Therefore, there is one period >> left which is therefore part of the quoted text. >> >> All three possibilities are plausible to me under the rules. But >> under these rules, I can=92t tell which is the correct one. >> >> There is another problem, with whitespace: >> =93zoi gy gy=94 =3D =93=94 or =93 =94? >> >> Here are more examples (look closely at spaces and periods): >> =93zoi gy. .gy=94 =3D =93 =94, =93=94, =93. =94, =93.=94, =93. =94? >> =93zoi gy.Peter Smith.gy=94 =3D =93Peter Smith=94, =93.Peter Smith=94, = =93Peter Smith.=94, >> =93.Peter Smith.=94? >> =93zoi gy. Peter Smith .gy=94 =3D =93Peter Smith=94, =93 Peter Smith=94, >> =93Peter Smith =94, =93 Peter Smith =94? >> With or without periods? >> =93zoi gy.pdf.gy=94 =3D =93pdf=94, =93.pdf=94, =93.pdf.=94, =93pdf.=94? >> =93zoi gy..pdf.gy=94 =3D =93pdf=94, =93.pdf=94, =93.pdf.=94, =93pdf.=94,= =93..pdf=94 or even >> =93..pdf.=94? >> >> Now here comes the real problem: >> The Reference Grammar does NOT have an answer, >> so any of these answers I suggested could be true. >> >> Here is what the grammar chapter of the Reference Grammar says: >> =93a. If the Lojban word =91zoi=92 (selma'o ZOI) is identified, take the >> following Lojban word (which should be end delimited with a pause for >> separation from the following non-Lojban text) as an opening delimiter. >> Treat all text following that delimiter, until that delimiter recurs >> after a pause, as grammatically a single token (labelled =91anything_699= =92 >> in this grammar). There is no need for processing within this text >> except as necessary to find the closing delimiter.=94 >> This text does not explicitly state wheather to write down the periods. >> I only know all periods are optional, leading to the situation >> I pointed out before (pun intended). >> The section on ZO and ZOI is of no help either. >> >> The point I want to make here is that the Reference Grammar does NOT say >> which possiblity to choose. So please don=92t argue about what you think >> would be the correct choice here. There is no correct choice, the >> Reference Grammer does not define these borderline cases at all. Which >> means: It is impossible to reliably quote any string with whitespace or >> a period at the beginning or end. >> >> Since the Reference Grammar is disappointing me here, there must be a >> clear definition for these cases. >> >> I therefore suggest the following rule changes to be applied to the >> Reference Grammar: >> - Written Lojban: >> - periods are MANDATORY at the following places: Right after the >> opening delimeter word and right before the closing delimeter word. >> The mandatory period is considered part of the delimeter. >> - The period of the opening and closing delimeter may not be merged >> into one period. >> And just to be sure: >> - The quote starts after the period of the opening delimeter. >> - The quote ends before the period of the closing delimeter. >> - Everything, even whitespace between those two periods is considered >> quoted. >> - Spoken Lojban: >> - The sound of the delimeter word may not appear in the quoted text, >> no matter if there=92s a glottal stop before or after it. >> >> Here are some valid and invalid examples under these proposed rules: >> =93zoi gy..gy=94 =3D =93=94. The opening delmeter is = =93gy.=94, >> the closing delimeter is =93.gy=94. >> =93zoi gy.gy=94 is an error! 2nd delimeter missing >> =93zoi gygy=94 is an error! 1st delimeter missing >> =93zoi gy. .gy=94 =3D =93 =94 >> =93zoi gy..pdf.gy=94 =3D =93.pdf=94 >> =93zoi gy.pdf.gy=94 =3D =93pdf=94 >> =93zoi gy.Peter Smith.gy.=94 =3D =93Peter Smith=94 >> =93zoi gy.Peter Smith.gy=94 =3D =93Peter Smith=94 (note the peri= od >> AFTER the closing delimeter is still >> optional) >> =93zoi gy.Wuzzy eats Pizza..gy.=94 =3D =93Wuzzy eats Pizza.=94 >> =93zoi gy. Peter Smith .gy.=94 =3D =93 Peter Smith =94 >> =93zoi lo..lo.lo=94 =3D =93=94 followed by an article >> =93zoi gy...gy=94 =3D =93.=94 >> =93zoi gy. . .gy=94 =3D =93 . =94 >> =93zoi gy.....gy=94 =3D =93...=94 >> >> Here are some borderline cases: >> =93zoi gy.gy.gy=94 violates the spoken Lojban rule iff the 2nd >> =93gy=94 has the sound of Lojban=92s =93gy=94. >> =93zoi gy.gy.gy=94 is valid and is =93gy=94 iff the 2nd =93gy=94 has NOT= the sound >> of Lojban=92s =93gy=94. >> =93zoi gy.gyrations.gy=94: same as previous ones. >> >> Note the last three cases are borderline cases and should be used with >> care. The pronounciation of the quoted text must be known for this to >> work. While these may be valid, at best such borderline cases are >> avoided by choosing another delimeter. Because you aren=92t going to >> tortue the recipient, aren=92t you? ;-) >> >> That=92s it. >> I have made some research and it seems nobody has pointed out these >> problems before. Anyhow, this looks like serious trouble and >> certainly must be fixed. >> It is embarrassing that I am able to quote more precisely with English >> than with Lojban. ;-) ;-) ;-) >> >> Please say wheather you agree with me in general and wheather you think >> the proposed change is okay. If my proposal or reasoning has flaws in >> is, please point them out. >> >> Greetings! >> -- >> Wuzzy >> XMPP: Wuzzy2@jabber.ccc.de >> E-Mail: wuzzy2@mail.ru >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --047d7bdc13dc07bef204efa27350 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=A0I agree that the problem is real, but I don't agree= that it's "serious trouble" After all, in 30 years, it hasn't been an i= ssue. =A0Nonetheless, your solution looks fine from the point of view of di= sambiguation, but I doubt seriously that anyone will care to use it, becaus= e of the onerousness of having to use it for the 99.999% of case where it d= oesn't actually matter (i.e. the same kind of reasoning (to an even str= onger degree) that led to a decision of using be-bei-be'o instead of = =A0a simpler be SUMTI SUMTI SUMTI be'o construction). If a person would= really be that concerned about a leading space, for example, they might re= sort to a circumlocution like=A0lu&= #39;e sepli bu joi zoi zoi Peter Smith zoi lu'u (not 100% sure this is = correct), which would also keep much of the speech/text isomorphism not usu= ally found in zoi constructions anyhow.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0-gejyspa



On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 1:38 PM, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com>= wrote:
I thought {zoi} plus delimiters was only for words, which wo= uld exclude bare punctuation.=A0

stevo


On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at= 12:58 PM, Wuzzy <almikes@aol.com> wrote:
TL;DR: Quoting with ZOI can be ambigious. I = point out the flaws and show
how the Reference Grammar does not help here. Then I propose a change=97or<= br> more precisely: a clarification=97to the grammar which hopefully fixes
the flaws.

Full text:
I noticed that you run into trouble when your ZOI quote has trailing
or leading whitespace, or trailing or leading periods. Also you run
into trouble if you want to decode a ZOI quote because you can=92t tell
if the text truly has trailing/leading whitespace/periods or not.

Just for extra clarity: In this e-mail I will make use of the so-called
logical quotation style so you know exactly what I=92m talking about and because the British quotation style is just damn awful.
Logical quotation style is basically this: All characters which are
between the quotation marks are quoted. No magic! ;-)
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_mark#Punctuation>

Let=92s go!
Just look at this:
What does =93zoi gy..gy=94 quote?
I could think of these answers:
(1) =93=94 (empty string (string =3D sequence of characters))
(2) =93..=94 (two periods)
(3) =93.=94 (one period)

All three answers seem plausible to me. Remember: according to the
Reference Grammar, all periods are optional:
=93Technically, the period is an optional reminder to the reader of a
mandatory pause that is dictated by the rules of the language;
because these rules are unambiguous, a missing period can be inferred
from otherwise correct text. Periods are included only as an aid to
the reader.=94=97Reference Grammar, chapter 3, section 3.

(1) would be true if both periods are considered to be part of the
delimeter, therefore, they are part of the Lojban text and not of the
quoted text.
(2) would be true if the =93pause periods=94 of Lojban have
been ommitted. Therefore, the periods must be part of the quoted text.
(3) is a weird case which could be true if one of the =93pause periods=94 has been ommited, but not the other one. Therefore, there is one period
left which is therefore part of the quoted text.

All three possibilities are plausible to me under the rules. But
under these rules, I can=92t tell which is the correct one.

There is another problem, with whitespace:
=93zoi gy gy=94 =3D =93=94 or =93 =94?

Here are more examples (look closely at spaces and periods):
=93zoi gy. .gy=94 =3D =93 =94, =93=94, =93. =94, =93.=94, =93. =94?
=93zoi gy.Peter Smith.gy=94 =3D =93Peter Smith=94, =93.Peter Smith=94, =93P= eter Smith.=94,
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =93.Peter Smith.=94? =93zoi gy. Peter Smith .gy=94 =3D =93Peter Smith=94, =93 Peter Smith=94, =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =93Peter Smith =94,= =93 Peter Smith =94?
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 With or without per= iods?
=93zoi gy.pdf.gy=94 =3D = =93pdf=94, =93.pdf=94, =93.pdf.=94, =93pdf.=94?
=93zoi gy..pdf.gy=94 =3D = =93pdf=94, =93.pdf=94, =93.pdf.=94, =93pdf.=94, =93..pdf=94 or even
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=93..pdf.=94?

Now here comes the real problem:
The Reference Grammar does NOT have an answer,
so any of these answers I suggested could be true.

Here is what the grammar chapter of the Reference Grammar says:
=93a. If the Lojban word =91zoi=92 (selma'o ZOI) is identified, take th= e
following Lojban word (which should be end delimited with a pause for
separation from the following non-Lojban text) as an opening delimiter.
Treat all text following that delimiter, until that delimiter recurs
after a pause, as grammatically a single token (labelled =91anything_699=92=
in this grammar). There is no need for processing within this text
except as necessary to find the closing delimiter.=94
This text does not explicitly state wheather to write down the periods.
I only know all periods are optional, leading to the situation
I pointed out before (pun intended).
The section on ZO and ZOI is of no help either.

The point I want to make here is that the Reference Grammar does NOT say which possiblity to choose. So please don=92t argue about what you think would be the correct choice here. There is no correct choice, the
Reference Grammer does not define these borderline cases at all. Which
means: It is impossible to reliably quote any string with whitespace or
a period at the beginning or end.

Since the Reference Grammar is disappointing me here, there must be a
clear definition for these cases.

I therefore suggest the following rule changes to be applied to the
Reference Grammar:
- Written Lojban:
=A0 - periods are MANDATORY at the following places: Right after the
=A0 =A0 opening delimeter word and right before the closing delimeter word.=
=A0 =A0 The mandatory period is considered part of the delimeter.
=A0 - The period of the opening and closing delimeter may not be merged
=A0 =A0 into one period.
=A0 And just to be sure:
=A0 - The quote starts after the period of the opening delimeter.
=A0 - The quote ends before the period of the closing delimeter.
=A0 - Everything, even whitespace between those two periods is considered =A0 =A0 quoted.
- Spoken Lojban:
=A0 - The sound of the delimeter word may not appear in the quoted text, =A0 =A0 no matter if there=92s a glottal stop before or after it.

Here are some valid and invalid examples under these proposed rules:
=93zoi gy..gy=94 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=3D =93=94. The ope= ning delmeter is =93gy.=94,
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 the closing= delimeter is =93.gy=94.
=93zoi gy.gy=94 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 is an error! 2nd delimeter missing
=93zoi gygy=94 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0is an error! 1st = delimeter missing
=93zoi gy. .gy=94 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =3D =93 =94
=93zoi gy..pdf.gy=94 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=3D =93.pdf=94
=93zoi gy.pdf.gy=94 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =3D =93pdf=94
=93zoi gy.Peter Smith.gy.=94 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=3D =93Peter Smith=94
=93zoi gy.Peter Smith.gy=94 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =3D =93Peter Smith=94 (note the= period
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 AFTER the c= losing delimeter is still
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 optional) =93zoi gy.Wuzzy eats Pizza..gy.=94 =A0=3D =93Wuzzy eats Pizza.=94
=93zoi gy. Peter Smith .gy.=94 =A0 =A0 =A0=3D =93 Peter Smith =94
=93zoi lo..lo.lo=94 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =3D =93=94 followed by = an article
=93zoi gy...gy=94 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =3D =93.=94
=93zoi gy. . .gy=94 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =3D =93 . =94
=93zoi gy.....gy=94 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =3D =93...=94

Here are some borderline cases:
=93zoi gy.gy.gy=94 violat= es the spoken Lojban rule iff the 2nd
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=93gy=94 has the sound of Lojban=92s =93gy= =94.
=93zoi gy.gy.gy=94 is val= id and is =93gy=94 iff the 2nd =93gy=94 has NOT the sound
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0of Lojban=92s =93gy=94.
=93zoi gy.gyrations.gy= =94: same as previous ones.

Note the last three cases are borderline cases and should be used with
care. The pronounciation of the quoted text must be known for this to
work. While these may be valid, at best such borderline cases are
avoided by choosing another delimeter. Because you aren=92t going to
tortue the recipient, aren=92t you? ;-)

That=92s it.
I have made some research and it seems nobody has pointed out these
problems before. Anyhow, this looks like serious trouble and
certainly must be fixed.
It is embarrassing that I am able to quote more precisely with English
than with Lojban. ;-) ;-) ;-)

Please say wheather you agree with me in general and wheather you think
the proposed change is okay. If my proposal or reasoning has flaws in
is, please point them out.

Greetings!
--
Wuzzy
XMPP: Wuzzy2@jabb= er.ccc.de
E-Mail: wuzzy2@mail.ru<= /a>

--
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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--
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