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Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 14:04:47 -0700
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Quoting with ZOI can be ambigious
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
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Personally, I think that the practice of omitting *mandatory* periods in
Lojban text should be stopped altogether, in part because it leads to
problems like this, but mainly because the practice breaks iso-morphism.


On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 1:33 PM, Wuzzy <almikes@aol.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 14:08:20 -0500
> Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >  I agree that the problem is real, but I don't agree that it's
> > "serious trouble" After all, in 30 years, it hasn't been an issue.
> The whole point of zoi is to quote everything exactly. Not being able
> to quote leading spaces or periods is annoying.
> And just because it wasn=92t =93an issue=94 for 30 years does not mean we
> should ignore it now.
>
> Besides, Lojban is a language which prides itself as having an
> unambigious grammar. I showed that there is a part which causes
> ambigiouty. ZOI obviously is part of the grammar, so this IS serious
> trouble, because one of Lojban=92s major premises is broken here!
>
> > Nonetheless, your solution looks fine from the point of view of
> > disambiguation,
> Thanks.
>
> > but I doubt seriously that anyone will care to use
> > it, because of the onerousness of having to use it for the 99.999% of
> > case where it doesn't actually matter
> I think my proposal is actually pretty simple. I basically just
> proposed to make two periods mandatory. I can=92t see what is
> onrous about two periods: It doesn=92t affect speaking, since you=92d hav=
e
> to pause anyways. It affects writing just a very little, because two
> points are written quickly. It affecty typing by requiring you to type
> lousy two more characters. It is overstated to say that THIS is onerous.
> Actually you pay a very small fee. But what you get for the change is a
> way to quote strings unambigiously.
> But also keep in mind that I not only aim to make people adopt it, but,
> more importantly, make this change _official_. I want this or a similar
> change to be included in the 2nd edition of the Reference Grammar.
>
> Also I disagree that it for 99.999% of the time it does not matter.
> Consider programming for example. If you want to quote a snippet of
> code, it is often crucial to quote it exactly, character-for-character.
> Points and spaces often DO matter. And in a programming-related text,
> the percentage of =93where it does not matter=94 is likely to be much low=
er
> than 99.999%. Or if you just want to quote the name of a file in a
> GNU/Linux environment, you are going to quote a lot of =93dot files=94,
> that is, files which start with a dot, like =93.bashrc=94, =93.vimrc=94, =
etc.
>
> > If a person would really be that concerned about a
> > leading space, for example, they might resort to a circumlocution
> > like lu'e sepli bu joi zoi zoi Peter Smith zoi lu'u (not 100% sure
> > this is correct), which would also keep much of the speech/text
> > isomorphism not usually found in zoi constructions anyhow.
> I think =93joi=94 is not the correct cmavo here but I guess I get your
> point. Anyways, which cmavo is the correct one is not important for now.
> What you proposed is just a quick and ugly hack. Yes, it would probably
> work, but I=92d consider it inconvenient.
> With this hack you are basically just dancing around the problem, just
> because you think my proposal is =93onerous=94 to use.
>
> And what is in zoi quotes does not need to keep audio-visual
> isomorphism. That=92s the point! For example, you can=92t really =93hear=
=94
> spaces and periods and commas in English but that=92s not Lojban=92s
> problem. Lojban does not have to fix the =93flaws=94 of other languages, =
it
> would be enough if Lojban is able to quote texts written in them
> unambigiously.
> That=92s what makes ZOI so great: Instead of trying to shoehorn foreign
> languages into Lojban=92s ruleset, ZOI simply accepts that other
> languages are not like Lojban, don=92t neccessarily have isomorphism, yet
> it is able to unambigously quote them without changing them =85 well,
> expect when you=92re dealing with trailing spaces and periouds =85 :-/ Th=
is
> exception is which bugs me and actually it is just plain ugly and does
> bring no benefit.
>
> I hope you understand.
>
> Greetings!
> --
> Wuzzy
> XMPP: Wuzzy2@jabber.ccc.de
> E-Mail: wuzzy2@mail.ru
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>


--=20
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--=20
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Personally, I think that the practice of omitting <i>manda=
tory</i> periods in Lojban text should be stopped altogether, in part becau=
se it leads to problems like this, but mainly because the practice breaks i=
so-morphism.<br>
</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat,=
 Jan 11, 2014 at 1:33 PM, Wuzzy <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alm=
ikes@aol.com" target=3D"_blank">almikes@aol.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px =
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"im">On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 14:08:20 -0500<br>
Michael Turniansky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mturniansky@gmail.com">mturniansky=
@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; =A0I agree that the problem is real, but I don&#39;t agree that it&#39=
;s<br>
&gt; &quot;serious trouble&quot; After all, in 30 years, it hasn&#39;t been=
 an issue.<br>
</div>The whole point of zoi is to quote everything exactly. Not being able=
<br>
to quote leading spaces or periods is annoying.<br>
And just because it wasn=92t =93an issue=94 for 30 years does not mean we<b=
r>
should ignore it now.<br>
<br>
Besides, Lojban is a language which prides itself as having an<br>
unambigious grammar. I showed that there is a part which causes<br>
ambigiouty. ZOI obviously is part of the grammar, so this IS serious<br>
trouble, because one of Lojban=92s major premises is broken here!<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; Nonetheless, your solution looks fine from the point of view of<br>
&gt; disambiguation,<br>
</div>Thanks.<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; but I doubt seriously that anyone will care to use<br>
&gt; it, because of the onerousness of having to use it for the 99.999% of<=
br>
&gt; case where it doesn&#39;t actually matter<br>
</div>I think my proposal is actually pretty simple. I basically just<br>
proposed to make two periods mandatory. I can=92t see what is<br>
onrous about two periods: It doesn=92t affect speaking, since you=92d have<=
br>
to pause anyways. It affects writing just a very little, because two<br>
points are written quickly. It affecty typing by requiring you to type<br>
lousy two more characters. It is overstated to say that THIS is onerous.<br=
>
Actually you pay a very small fee. But what you get for the change is a<br>
way to quote strings unambigiously.<br>
But also keep in mind that I not only aim to make people adopt it, but,<br>
more importantly, make this change _official_. I want this or a similar<br>
change to be included in the 2nd edition of the Reference Grammar.<br>
<br>
Also I disagree that it for 99.999% of the time it does not matter.<br>
Consider programming for example. If you want to quote a snippet of<br>
code, it is often crucial to quote it exactly, character-for-character.<br>
Points and spaces often DO matter. And in a programming-related text,<br>
the percentage of =93where it does not matter=94 is likely to be much lower=
<br>
than 99.999%. Or if you just want to quote the name of a file in a<br>
GNU/Linux environment, you are going to quote a lot of =93dot files=94,<br>
that is, files which start with a dot, like =93.bashrc=94, =93.vimrc=94, et=
c.<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; If a person would really be that concerned about a<br>
&gt; leading space, for example, they might resort to a circumlocution<br>
&gt; like lu&#39;e sepli bu joi zoi zoi Peter Smith zoi lu&#39;u (not 100% =
sure<br>
&gt; this is correct), which would also keep much of the speech/text<br>
&gt; isomorphism not usually found in zoi constructions anyhow.<br>
</div>I think =93joi=94 is not the correct cmavo here but I guess I get you=
r<br>
point. Anyways, which cmavo is the correct one is not important for now.<br=
>
What you proposed is just a quick and ugly hack. Yes, it would probably<br>
work, but I=92d consider it inconvenient.<br>
With this hack you are basically just dancing around the problem, just<br>
because you think my proposal is =93onerous=94 to use.<br>
<br>
And what is in zoi quotes does not need to keep audio-visual<br>
isomorphism. That=92s the point! For example, you can=92t really =93hear=94=
<br>
spaces and periods and commas in English but that=92s not Lojban=92s<br>
problem. Lojban does not have to fix the =93flaws=94 of other languages, it=
<br>
would be enough if Lojban is able to quote texts written in them<br>
unambigiously.<br>
That=92s what makes ZOI so great: Instead of trying to shoehorn foreign<br>
languages into Lojban=92s ruleset, ZOI simply accepts that other<br>
languages are not like Lojban, don=92t neccessarily have isomorphism, yet<b=
r>
it is able to unambigously quote them without changing them =85 well,<br>
expect when you=92re dealing with trailing spaces and periouds =85 :-/ This=
<br>
exception is which bugs me and actually it is just plain ugly and does<br>
bring no benefit.<br>
<br>
I hope you understand.<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
Greetings!<br>
--<br>
Wuzzy<br>
XMPP: <a href=3D"mailto:Wuzzy2@jabber.ccc.de">Wuzzy2@jabber.ccc.de</a><br>
E-Mail: <a href=3D"mailto:wuzzy2@mail.ru">wuzzy2@mail.ru</a><br>
<br>
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" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi=
&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l=
uk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. =
:D )<br>

</div>

<p></p>

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