Received: from mail-ve0-f190.google.com ([209.85.128.190]:34759) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1W2njh-00046U-6m for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 12:04:09 -0800 Received: by mail-ve0-f190.google.com with SMTP id db12sf665953veb.7 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 12:03:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ldSgNEv1YLDK41D4TmwYuTYg4SWCys5lTrVmjS+szg0=; b=DAOQ1GGbCvnf7H0kWflmsonv90Ja6oyIp1KojpiTYMnYZi8fDp8w45JaEzcpVyzBZS e5nYbsOXKlaukJV9R3x0O8Xyz/iS/lFSFn+X2DcgDIDJoL2nG/U7rxZECnCR/jx6qpML TRJeyeZYuaZ9e+JNmYQxRNlRtUqVpYeeNgJXqkNKLaL/o5b5itBtOnoFfFyDAWqIVGUd maAMVubluTIHuIHx0hImBQ7IzRdzOF2/g9KwoCMIvqJYZJZwRqHMDoLcVYWt5HE8RhXL CYeTQln9Dc3ctj1zTzJICP8+vBe+ybfQcuHGTeALshqW9jSFqa+ufS4Yiv/6IAKwThhS L7bg== X-Received: by 10.50.79.228 with SMTP id m4mr355122igx.9.1389643418105; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 12:03:38 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.79.138 with SMTP id j10ls1674949igx.12.canary; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 12:03:37 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.66.190.197 with SMTP id gs5mr9985337pac.14.1389643417669; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 12:03:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qa0-x22b.google.com (mail-qa0-x22b.google.com [2607:f8b0:400d:c00::22b]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t9si1097770qcn.2.2014.01.13.12.03.37 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jan 2014 12:03:37 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c00::22b as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c00::22b; Received: by mail-qa0-f43.google.com with SMTP id o15so1113547qap.16 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 12:03:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.49.119.66 with SMTP id ks2mr32756905qeb.14.1389643404975; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 12:03:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.96.161.99 with HTTP; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 12:03:24 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <6c574e80-490a-49fc-9993-b063ae4430c7@googlegroups.com> <520032ce-f5db-497b-87bb-c151a5496902@googlegroups.com> <60e6003b-c08e-44e6-8eff-c8dd7c30d447@googlegroups.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:03:24 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] completely off-topic From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c00::22b as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bdc13dc84da5d04efdf91b8 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --047d7bdc13dc84da5d04efdf91b8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That's ordinarily true, aionys, but only insofar as it's true as "ko'a blabi" is badly formed because ko'a has not been heretofore assigned with a goi. And yet, people (not me) use those kind of constructions a lot. If I were to just say "by. rajcla nixli", you should probably say "by ki'a?" or "ma goi by go'i". But nonetheless, you would probably rightly assume that "by" was standing in for something, that was not the letter itself (as asserted by iesk, although I disagree with iesk that we would ever assume it is standing in for a initally-glottally-stopped word. Only alphabetics take that assumption). So usually, if I meant the letter itself, I would use "me'o by" Nonetheless, there is no reason to not assume that "denpa bu" could not in fact be implicitly standing in for me'o denpa bu, if there were no contradictory assignments (such as "luk goi denpa bu cu klama la nunmro tarci .i denpa bu cu daspo lo se go'i ") (as per John. So, to summarize, in ".i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o" "denpa bu" is indeed an anaphora with no antecedent, which we can assume in this case is referring to me'o denpa bu. --gejyspa On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 9:31 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > In my understanding, in order for any letteral to be used as a pro-sumti, > the referent has to be used in full first. > > In other words, {gy.} doesn't automagically refer to a dog unless {lo > gerku} has been uttered in the conversation. > > Coupling that with the fact I don't think anyone had ever referred to > something with anything other than a letter ({la.alis.} -> {.abu}, not > {denpa bu}), and I'd say that {me'o} is just an extra two unnecessary > syllables. > On Dec 22, 2013 4:07 PM, "iesk" wrote: > >> Le dimanche 22 d=C3=A9cembre 2013 22:49:13 UTC+1, aionys a =C3=A9crit : >>> >>> >>> As I said, I'm not talking about pro-sumti. >>> >> >> I think bare letteral {denpa bu} acts as a pro-sumti. That's why I fail >> to understand your sentence the way I believe it is meant to be understo= od. >> >> >The Dot Side doesn't refer to using letterals as pro-sumti, as in the >> {by.} in {la.benjis. gerku .i by. barda}. It refers to >> >the practice of leading cmevla with a "." so that the *letteral* groups >> "la", "lai", and "doi" can be used in them. (As for >> >example {la.doitcland.} or {la.las,andjeles.}). >> >> I understand that. But Dot Side doesn't change the way bare letterals ar= e >> interpreted as anaphora. The weird thing about {denpa bu} as an anaphora= is >> that it is unlikely to be used as such, since the words it could possibl= y >> refer to can't start with denpa bu. (Although, technically, they can, si= nce >> every 'vowel-initial' word starts with {.V=E2=80=A6}, but the canonical = anaphora is >> of course {.V bu}, not {denpa bu}. Which makes sense.) >> >> I think that {me'o denpa bu} is the way to say 'dot' (in the lerfu >> sense), cf. . But I'll be happy to be >> corrected, I tend to not get the subtleties. >> >> (By the way, {lasandjeles} is not a well-formed word, even under Dot >> Side; {ndj} is not a valid cluster.) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --047d7bdc13dc84da5d04efdf91b8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 That's ordinarily true, aionys, but only= insofar as it's true as "ko'a blabi" is badly formed bec= ause ko'a has not been heretofore assigned with a goi. =C2=A0And yet, p= eople (not me) use those kind of constructions a lot. =C2=A0If I were to ju= st say "by. rajcla nixli", you should probably say "by ki= 9;a?" =C2=A0or "ma goi by go'i". =C2=A0But nonetheless, = you would probably rightly assume that "by" was standing in for s= omething, that was not the letter itself (as asserted by iesk, although I d= isagree with iesk that we would ever assume it is standing in for a initall= y-glottally-stopped word. =C2=A0Only alphabetics take that assumption). =C2= =A0So usually, if I meant the letter itself, I would use "me'o by&= quot; =C2=A0Nonetheless, there is no reason to not assume that "denpa = bu" could not in fact be implicitly standing in for me'o denpa bu,= if there were no contradictory assignments (such as "luk goi denpa bu= cu klama la nunmro tarci .i denpa bu cu daspo lo se go'i ") (as p= er John.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0So, to summarize, in =C2=A0".i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pil= no be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o" "denpa bu" = is indeed an anaphora with no antecedent, which we can assume in this case = is referring to me'o denpa bu.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa



On Sun, Dec 22, 201= 3 at 9:31 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

In my understanding, in order= for any letteral to be used as a pro-sumti, the referent has to be used in= full first.

In other words, {gy.} doesn't automagically refer to a d= og unless {lo gerku} has been uttered in the conversation.

Coupling that with the fact I don't think anyone had eve= r referred to something with anything other than a letter ({la.alis.} ->= {.abu}, not {denpa bu}), and I'd say that {me'o} is just an extra = two unnecessary syllables.

On Dec 22, 2013 4:07 PM, "iesk" <pa.fae@gmx.de> wrot= e:
Le dimanche 22 d=C3=A9cembre 2013 22:49:13 UTC+1, aionys a= =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
=

As I said, I'm not talking about pro-sumti.

I think bare letteral {denpa b= u} acts as a pro-sumti. That's why I fail to understand your sentence t= he way I believe it is meant to be understood.

>The Dot Side doesn't refer to using letterals as pro-sumti, as = in the=20 {by.} in {la.benjis. gerku .i by. barda}. It refers to
>the practice = of=20 leading cmevla with a "." so that the letteral groups &quo= t;la", "lai", and "doi" can be used in them. (As f= or
>example {la.doitcland.} or {la.las,andjeles.}).

I understa= nd that. But Dot Side doesn't change the way bare letterals are interpr= eted as anaphora. The weird thing about {denpa bu} as an anaphora is that i= t is unlikely to be used as such, since the words it could possibly refer t= o can't start with denpa bu. (Although, technically, they can, since ev= ery 'vowel-initial' word starts with {.V=E2=80=A6}, but the canonic= al anaphora is of course {.V bu}, not {denpa bu}. Which makes sense.)

I think that {me'o denpa bu} is the way to say 'dot' (in th= e lerfu sense), cf. <http://dag.github.io/cll/17/10/>. But I'll be happy = to be corrected, I tend to not get the subtleties.

(By the way, {lasandjeles} is not a well-formed word, = even under Dot Side; {ndj} is not a valid cluster.)

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