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Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 14:42:32 -0500
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Subject: Re: [lojban] HISTORIAN/general discussion: po (GOI) and sumtcita
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
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 Content preview:  0. I can't. 1. Not why, but I have a simpler way to describe
    it. Note that my terminology is probably not consistent with that of any
   of the parsers. Essentially there's a pseudo-selma'o SUMTI and pseudo-selma'o
    TERM. Every SUMTI is TERM, but sumtcita phrases and {naku} are also TERM.
    Many of the places where SUMTI can appear, TERM can also appear. This includes
    GOI, BE linkargs, before a ZOhU, etc. Roughly speaking, grammatical positions
    which look like the "sumti filling" mechanism of bridi are TERM positions.
    There are places where SUMTI can appear and other TERM cannot. The most obvious
    is the slot of a sumtcita, you can't say {bai bai ku} or something. [...]
    
 
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0. I can't.

1. Not why, but I have a simpler way to describe it. Note that my
terminology is probably not consistent with that of any of the parsers.
Essentially there's a pseudo-selma'o SUMTI and pseudo-selma'o TERM. Every
SUMTI is TERM, but sumtcita phrases and {naku} are also TERM. Many of the
places where SUMTI can appear, TERM can also appear. This includes GOI, BE
linkargs, before a ZOhU, etc. Roughly speaking, grammatical positions which
look like the "sumti filling" mechanism of bridi are TERM positions. There
are places where SUMTI can appear and other TERM cannot. The most obvious
is the slot of a sumtcita, you can't say {bai bai ku} or something.

2. I do not have a meaning for you except for {pe} and {ne}.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o


On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 2:28 PM, Robin Lee Powell <
rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:

> (replies to the main list please)
>
> So it turns out that GOI (goi, ne, no'u, pe, po, po'e, po'u) can
> take sumtcita.  In
> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK%20Section:%20Subordinators , I
> asserted that for pe and ne (and presumably po, athough I didn't say
> that) this means "sumtcita applies to the relevant sumti", which is
> *HUGELY* useful; using "le broda po fa'a le brodi" in this sense
> comes up *every day* with the jbocifnu, usually in the form of
> "don't pee on the X" :).
>
> So this is a thing in the language that literally *does not appear*,
> even in brief reference, in the CLL.
>
> My questions are:
>
>
> 0.  Can someone who has the old official parse running confirm that
> this works there too and isn't some knid of weird regression?
>
> 1.  Does anyone know, historically, why this works?
>
> 2.  What should this mean with each member of GOI?  "With X it's
> meaningless don't do that" is a reasonable response; "goi" is an
> obvious target there.
>
> Thanks.
>
> -Robin
>
> --
> http://intelligence.org/ :  Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
> .i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i dafsku lu na go'i li'u .e
> lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e
> lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mamta be do cu sofybakni
> li'u
>
> --
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>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>0. I can&#39;t.<br></div><div><br></div>1. =
Not why, but I have a simpler way to describe it. Note that my terminology =
is probably not consistent with that of any of the parsers. Essentially the=
re&#39;s a pseudo-selma&#39;o SUMTI and pseudo-selma&#39;o TERM. Every SUMT=
I is TERM, but sumtcita phrases and {naku} are also TERM. Many of the place=
s where SUMTI can appear, TERM can also appear. This includes GOI, BE linka=
rgs, before a ZOhU, etc. Roughly speaking, grammatical positions which look=
 like the &quot;sumti filling&quot; mechanism of bridi are TERM positions. =
There are places where SUMTI can appear and other TERM cannot. The most obv=
ious is the slot of a sumtcita, you can&#39;t say {bai bai ku} or something=
. <br>
<br></div>2. I do not have a meaning for you except for {pe} and {ne}. <br>=
<br></div>mi&#39;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 2:28 PM, Rob=
in Lee Powell <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rlpowell@digitalkingd=
om.org" target=3D"_blank">rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:=
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">(replies to the main list please)<br>
<br>
So it turns out that GOI (goi, ne, no&#39;u, pe, po, po&#39;e, po&#39;u) ca=
n<br>
take sumtcita. =A0In<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK%20Section:%20Subordinators" targ=
et=3D"_blank">http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK%20Section:%20Subordinators</a=
> , I<br>
asserted that for pe and ne (and presumably po, athough I didn&#39;t say<br=
>
that) this means &quot;sumtcita applies to the relevant sumti&quot;, which =
is<br>
*HUGELY* useful; using &quot;le broda po fa&#39;a le brodi&quot; in this se=
nse<br>
comes up *every day* with the jbocifnu, usually in the form of<br>
&quot;don&#39;t pee on the X&quot; :).<br>
<br>
So this is a thing in the language that literally *does not appear*,<br>
even in brief reference, in the CLL.<br>
<br>
My questions are:<br>
<br>
<br>
0. =A0Can someone who has the old official parse running confirm that<br>
this works there too and isn&#39;t some knid of weird regression?<br>
<br>
1. =A0Does anyone know, historically, why this works?<br>
<br>
2. =A0What should this mean with each member of GOI? =A0&quot;With X it&#39=
;s<br>
meaningless don&#39;t do that&quot; is a reasonable response; &quot;goi&quo=
t; is an<br>
obvious target there.<br>
<br>
Thanks.<br>
<br>
-Robin<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
--<br>
<a href=3D"http://intelligence.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://intelligence.=
org/</a> : =A0Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.<br>
.i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i dafsku lu na go&#39;i li&#39;u=
 .e<br>
lu go&#39;i li&#39;u .i ji&#39;a go&#39;i lu na&#39;e go&#39;i li&#39;u .e =
lu go&#39;i na&#39;i li&#39;u .e<br>
lu no&#39;e go&#39;i li&#39;u .e lu to&#39;e go&#39;i li&#39;u .e lu lo mam=
ta be do cu sofybakni li&#39;u<br>
<br>
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</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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