Received: from mail-yk0-f187.google.com ([209.85.160.187]:38337) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1W4yJT-00018U-My for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 11:46:09 -0800 Received: by mail-yk0-f187.google.com with SMTP id 20sf1045062yks.4 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 11:45:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ZFTEtypX0PRjGgQ5Zurv5rzZzKV2l7gODNuzGyJy0Zg=; b=UuYypobvAkgYYhOP7oiXIKU70/ETEZ8ZcMr9ZhSuDmq0xCmBu7vSvaAirgYaDtxHTH ItCsug+rdYwtV8YZeqhT4x4ycM/YkoQXFY1u2+BUsASGqV0cVEAje8mTZZ4j3Am6gSY3 uGngnHelJf19FyE15QxuoO/c4PihE1oYtTYgkf7cvLkbqpsgB1UY/o4IqhtJNsfInZ9U bQUOTbzGopOZGkqlmRMGQIa1WegwtV51jIylUIyth4SHkDHsMGg/R9ShUvNVJbXoKRlj nFleKzuaTYGpb4Cy8UIOVevLIDD+Tfuhe4B2jA17VTWht3NylngzuP9W9eC2Tg1agZv+ H4mw== X-Received: by 10.50.111.79 with SMTP id ig15mr176121igb.12.1390160737323; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 11:45:37 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.93.73 with SMTP id cs9ls1361738igb.41.gmail; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 11:45:37 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.42.196.71 with SMTP id ef7mr4784319icb.24.1390160737015; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 11:45:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ve0-x232.google.com (mail-ve0-x232.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c01::232]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j9si579308qch.1.2014.01.19.11.45.36 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 19 Jan 2014 11:45:36 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c01::232 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c01::232; Received: by mail-ve0-f178.google.com with SMTP id oy12so1898667veb.37 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 11:45:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.220.133.80 with SMTP id e16mr8037665vct.13.1390160736677; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 11:45:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.8.195 with HTTP; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 11:45:36 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20140119192801.GA3217@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> References: <20140119192801.GA3217@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 17:45:36 -0200 Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Re: [bpfk] HISTORIAN/general discussion: po (GOI) and sumtcita From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com, lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c01::232 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11362cd4e3f68a04f058048f X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --001a11362cd4e3f68a04f058048f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Robin Lee Powell < rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote: > (replies to the main list please) > > So it turns out that GOI (goi, ne, no'u, pe, po, po'e, po'u) can > take sumtcita. In > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK%20Section:%20Subordinators , I > asserted that for pe and ne (and presumably po, athough I didn't say > that) this means "sumtcita applies to the relevant sumti", which is > *HUGELY* useful; using "le broda po fa'a le brodi" in this sense > comes up *every day* with the jbocifnu, usually in the form of > "don't pee on the X" :). > > So this is a thing in the language that literally *does not appear*, > even in brief reference, in the CLL. > It does appear, but it's in chapter 9, not chapter 8, because in chapter 8 tags haven't been introduced yet: http://dag.github.io/cll/9/10/ > > My questions are: > > > 0. Can someone who has the old official parse running confirm that > this works there too and isn't some knid of weird regression? > I don't have the old official parser, but I can confirm that it works. This is the relevant part of the EBNF: relative-clause122 = GOI # term /GEhU#/ | NOI # subsentence /KUhO#/ > > 1. Does anyone know, historically, why this works? > > 2. What should this mean with each member of GOI? "With X it's > meaningless don't do that" is a reasonable response; "goi" is an > obvious target there. > > Yes, with goi it's not very meaningful. For ne/pe, given the tag in "fi'o broda" form, I would say it means something like this: ne/pe fi'o broda ko'a = noi/poi ko'a broda do'e ke'a mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --001a11362cd4e3f68a04f058048f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Robin Lee Powell <rlpow= ell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
(replies to the main list please)

So it turns out that GOI (goi, ne, no'u, pe, po, po'e, po'u) ca= n
take sumtcita. =A0In
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK%20Section:%20Subordinators , I
asserted that for pe and ne (and presumably po, athough I didn't say that) this means "sumtcita applies to the relevant sumti", which = is
*HUGELY* useful; using "le broda po fa'a le brodi" in this se= nse
comes up *every day* with the jbocifnu, usually in the form of
"don't pee on the X" :).

So this is a thing in the language that literally *does not appear*,
even in brief reference, in the CLL.


=A0

My questions are:


0. =A0Can someone who has the old official parse running confirm that
this works there too and isn't some knid of weird regression?

I don't have the old official parser, but I = can confirm that it works. This is the relevant part of the EBNF:

=A0relative-clause122=A0=3D
GOI = # term /GEhU#/
| NOI # subsentence /KUhO#/


1. =A0Does anyone know, historically, why this works?

2. =A0What should this mean with each member of GOI? =A0"With X it'= ;s
meaningless don't do that" is a reasonable response; "goi&quo= t; is an
obvious target there.


Yes, with goi it's not very meanin= gful. For ne/pe, given the tag in "fi'o broda" form, I would = say it means something like this:

ne/pe fi'o b= roda ko'a =3D noi/poi ko'a broda do'e ke'a

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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