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Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 19:58:51 +0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] New year's resolution: Finish the dictionary
From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 7:49 PM, Wuzzy <almikes@aol.com> wrote:

> Am Mon, 20 Jan 2014 15:42:44 +0400
> schrieb Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>:
>
> > I saw this message in #jbopre channel
> > "New year's resolution: Finish the dictionary"
> Well, I=E2=80=99ll do my very best! ;-)
> <http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/personal/Wuzzy?extra=3Dvalsi>
>
> But the big questions are: When is the dictionary considered
> =E2=80=9Cfinished=E2=80=9D? Can it even ever be finished?
>

It's about a printed dictionary.


> I think the dictionary can never be possibly finished because language
> is an ongoing process, even for Lojban. You can express basically any
> kind of relation with the brivla and concepts come and go. The amount
> of possible lujvo=E2=80=94for example=E2=80=94is infinite since you can a=
lways attach
> *another* rafsi.
> Even in natural languages terms are invented every day. Especially when
> innovations in technology and science happen, new terms are neccessary
> to communicate. Since technology is not static, we can=E2=80=99t just mak=
e a
> bunch of words and say we=E2=80=99re =E2=80=9Cfinished=E2=80=9D. Just wai=
t 10 years and you
> will see a lot of techincal innovations for which the =E2=80=9Cfinished
> vocabulary=E2=80=9D hasn=E2=80=99t the right terms for.
>
> So the maybe the stated goal of =E2=80=9Cfinishing=E2=80=9D the dictionar=
y is flawed or
> at least very vague. A more concrete goal would probably help more.
>
> But this is just opinion, feel
> free to add your own into this discussion. :-)
>
> I also want to stress yet again that I still wait for the selma'o
> zi'evla (Lojban words for selma'o) to be added to the dictionary:
> <http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=3Dselma%27o_zi%27evla>
> I have posted a CSV file containing definitions, notes and etymology
> earlier on the mailing list. Twice. Nobody cared.


What do others think?


> The words already have
> been discussed and I think the resulting zi'evla are ready to be added
> into jbovlaste. If the CSV file got somehow lost, I can re-upload it;
> just ask me.
>
> > Is it a top secret or there is some info of the plan, ToDo list etc.
> > for us?
>
> It is interesting you ask this. I have recently developed a strategy
> for systematically creating new brivla =C3=A9n masse. But this was more l=
ike
> personal ideas, still not very well developed. But I currently try to
> stick to this strategy when looking for new words to create. So: Yes,
> there is a =E2=80=9Cplan=E2=80=9D, and you may even consider it a =E2=80=
=9Csecret=E2=80=9D because it
> was just private ideas of me.


> So probably I should make it public then:
>
> =3D How to create a lot of brivla systematically =3D
> 1.     lujvo
> 1.1.   direct/=E2=80=9Cmechanical=E2=80=9D derivations from gismu
> 1.1.1. from alternating/broad definitions
> 1.1.2. from notes
> 1.1.3. eliminate annoying places with =E2=80=9Czi'o=E2=80=9D
> 1.2.   semantic derivations from gismu
> 1.2.1. Think of any gismu=E2=80=93gismu combinations which would make sen=
se
> 1.2.2. cmavo + gismu
> 1.2.3  standad lujvo conventions from lujpap.3 (gasnu, rinka, zanru, =E2=
=80=A6)
> 1.2.4. =E2=80=9Cto'e=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cna'e=E2=80=9D variants, when i=
t makes sense
> 1.3.   fu'ivla/cmavo/lujvo/cmevla + fu'ivla
> 1.4.   cmevla + fu'ivla/lujvo/(cmavo)
>
> 2.     fu'ivla
> 2.1.   stage 3
> 2.1.1. semantic derivations from gismu if lujvo is not possible
> 2.2.   stage 4
> 2.2.1. short established, often used stage-3 fu'ivla (if possible)
> 2.2.X. other than that, try to prefer stage-3 before stage-4
> 2.3.   any stage
> 2.3.1  =E2=80=9Croot=E2=80=9D fu'ivla: A new fu'ivla which is created as =
a base for a
>        broad range of new lujvo (see 1.3.)
>
> This is only a rough stragegy I have worked out for my personal work.
> But one main benefit of it is that minimizes bias from other languages
> (at least I hope so), especially the mechanical gismu derivations.
> Shoehorning words from other languages into lujvo does not always work
> well in Lojban. However, this strategy is still young and may change.
>
> To help you understand what I have just written down, here I give you
> some examples:
> 1.1.1. =E2=80=9Cpinji=E2=80=9D is defined as =E2=80=9Cpenis/cliotris=E2=
=80=9D =E2=86=92 This leads to two new
> lujvo, one explicitly for =E2=80=9Cpenis=E2=80=9D (=E2=80=9Cnakpinji=E2=
=80=9D) and
> =E2=80=9Ccliotris=E2=80=9D (=E2=80=9Cfetpinji=E2=80=9D)
>
> 1.1.2. The idea is whenever a certain (undefined) lujvo is
> mentioned in the notes, you have a new lujvo idea. One example is
> =E2=80=9Ctsapyvu'i=E2=80=9D, mentioned in =E2=80=9Cvrusi=E2=80=9D; it is =
now properly defined. :-)
>
> 1.1.3. =E2=80=9Czilkei=E2=80=9D: x1 is a toy. But still problematic for n=
ow; there is no
> real broadly used convention how to kill a certain place. This is
> because the =E2=80=9Czi'o=E2=80=9D behaves grammatically strange because =
it acts like a
> sumti. There is no convention except for killing x1 (=E2=80=9Czi'o brode=
=E2=80=9D),
> which would be =E2=80=9Czilbo'e=E2=80=9D. But what about killing other pl=
aces?
> Other gismu which certainly would deserve to get their places killed
> with =E2=80=9Czi'o=E2=80=9D include: =E2=80=9Clatna=E2=80=9D (x3, x4), =
=E2=80=9Cbotpi=E2=80=9D (x4).
>
> 1.2.1. Most words I created on jbovlaste recently fall into this
> category. I looked at =E2=80=9Cbalre=E2=80=9D (blade) for example and cam=
e up with
> =E2=80=9Cjincyba'e=E2=80=9D (=E2=80=9Cblade=E2=80=9D of scissors). I basi=
cally go through the gismu
> list alphametically and look on gismu X and start to ask myself:
> =E2=80=9CWhich variants of this gismu are the most obvious to me?=E2=80=
=9D.
>
> 1.2.2. =E2=80=9Cte'o zei dugri=E2=80=9D: natural logarithm (literally e-t=
ype of
> logarithm=E2=80=9D :-)). =E2=80=9Crarna dugri=E2=80=9D sounds too artific=
ial to me.
>
> 1.2.3. =E2=80=9Cfazgau=E2=80=9D: annoy (non-agentative), =E2=80=9Cfazgau=
=E2=80=9D: annoy (agentative)
>
> 1.2.4. =E2=80=9Ctaske=E2=80=9D (=E2=80=9Cthirsty=E2=80=9D) lead me to =E2=
=80=9Ctoltaske=E2=80=9D (=E2=80=9Cquenched=E2=80=9D) and
> =E2=80=9Cnortaske=E2=80=9D (roughly =E2=80=9Cneither thirsty nor quenched=
=E2=80=9D). Similar for
> =E2=80=9Cxagji=E2=80=9D.
>
> 1.3.   =E2=80=9Cxy. zei kantu=E2=80=9D: X-ray (suggested in CLL, no entry=
 in jbovlaste
> yet), but such words would be probably rare
>
> 1.4.   This is still hypothetical, could be used for concepts which are
> =E2=80=9Cnamed=E2=80=9D after a person in other languages. One possibilit=
y would be
> =E2=80=9CTuring machine=E2=80=9D. If we think of the hypothetized lujvo =
=E2=80=9Csucyskami=E2=80=9D as
> =E2=80=9Cabstract machine=E2=80=9D, then =E2=80=9CTuring machine=E2=80=9D=
 could be =E2=80=9Cturing. zei
> sucyskami=E2=80=9D. All of this is hypothetical. Note that when one wants=
 to
> combine a person name with a /gismu/, one could consider creating a
> stage-3 fu'ivla insted. Example: =E2=80=9CGraham=E2=80=99s number=E2=80=
=9D
> could be lojbanized as =E2=80=9Cgry'ym zei namcu=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cnam=
crgra'ama=E2=80=9D (which
> destroys the original name a bit).
>
> 2.1.1. basically most of flora and fauna =E2=80=A6 Need I say more? Other
> people are much more skilled in this area than I am.
>
> 2.2.1. Hypothetized example: =E2=80=9Cbrodrgrolisi=E2=80=9D =E2=86=92 =E2=
=80=9Cgrolisi=E2=80=9D; same
> definition as the original. I have never seen this in practice yet. :-(
> Strange, as this strategy is outlined in the CLL. Most people start
> right away with a stage-4 fu'ivla, even if it=E2=80=99s about a uncommon
> concept.
>
> 2.3.1. Very hypothetical; I could imagine this becoming useful for
> specialist subjects which have many words sharing a single concept.
>
>
> I hope you will now understand my new strategy. You can see it as a
> =E2=80=9CToDo list=E2=80=9D if you wish to. ;-)
>
> Now back to the New Year=E2=80=99s resolution. Now that I have presented =
my
> rough brivla creation stragety, then I could state some clearer goal:
>
> Define all lujvo which would result from 1.1.1. and 1.1.2.
>
> The lujvo which would result from this would make a) more vocabulary
> (obviously) and b) probably a solid base for even more complex concepts.
>
> --
> Wuzzy
> XMPP: Wuzzy2@jabber.ccc.de
> E-Mail: wuzzy2@mail.ru
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
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> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 7:49 PM, Wuzzy <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:almikes@aol.com" target=3D"_blank">almikes@aol.com</a>&gt;</spa=
n> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Am Mon, 20 Jan 2014 15:42:44 +0400<br>
schrieb Gleki Arxokuna &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com">gl=
eki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; I saw this message in #jbopre channel<br>
&gt; &quot;New year&#39;s resolution: Finish the dictionary&quot;<br>
</div>Well, I=E2=80=99ll do my very best! ;-)<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/personal/Wuzzy?extra=3Dvalsi" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/personal/Wuzzy?extra=3Dvalsi</a=
>&gt;<br>
<br>
But the big questions are: When is the dictionary considered<br>
=E2=80=9Cfinished=E2=80=9D? Can it even ever be finished?<br></blockquote><=
div><br></div><div>It&#39;s about a printed dictionary.=C2=A0</div><div><br=
></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<br>
I think the dictionary can never be possibly finished because language<br>
is an ongoing process, even for Lojban. You can express basically any<br>
kind of relation with the brivla and concepts come and go. The amount<br>
of possible lujvo=E2=80=94for example=E2=80=94is infinite since you can alw=
ays attach<br>
*another* rafsi.<br>
Even in natural languages terms are invented every day. Especially when<br>
innovations in technology and science happen, new terms are neccessary<br>
to communicate. Since technology is not static, we can=E2=80=99t just make =
a<br>
bunch of words and say we=E2=80=99re =E2=80=9Cfinished=E2=80=9D. Just wait =
10 years and you<br>
will see a lot of techincal innovations for which the =E2=80=9Cfinished<br>
vocabulary=E2=80=9D hasn=E2=80=99t the right terms for.<br>
<br>
So the maybe the stated goal of =E2=80=9Cfinishing=E2=80=9D the dictionary =
is flawed or<br>
at least very vague. A more concrete goal would probably help more.<br>
<br>
But this is just opinion, feel<br>
free to add your own into this discussion. :-)<br>
<br>
I also want to stress yet again that I still wait for the selma&#39;o<br>
zi&#39;evla (Lojban words for selma&#39;o) to be added to the dictionary:<b=
r>
&lt;<a href=3D"http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=3Dselma%27o_zi%27evla" =
target=3D"_blank">http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=3Dselma%27o_zi%27evl=
a</a>&gt;<br>
I have posted a CSV file containing definitions, notes and etymology<br>
earlier on the mailing list. Twice. Nobody cared.</blockquote><div><br></di=
v><div>What do others think?</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex">
 The words already have<br>
been discussed and I think the resulting zi&#39;evla are ready to be added<=
br>
into jbovlaste. If the CSV file got somehow lost, I can re-upload it;<br>
just ask me.<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; Is it a top secret or there is some info of the plan, ToDo list etc.<b=
r>
&gt; for us?<br>
<br>
</div>It is interesting you ask this. I have recently developed a strategy<=
br>
for systematically creating new brivla =C3=A9n masse. But this was more lik=
e<br>
personal ideas, still not very well developed. But I currently try to<br>
stick to this strategy when looking for new words to create. So: Yes,<br>
there is a =E2=80=9Cplan=E2=80=9D, and you may even consider it a =E2=80=9C=
secret=E2=80=9D because it<br>
was just private ideas of me.</blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
So probably I should make it public then:<br>
<br>
=3D How to create a lot of brivla systematically =3D<br>
1. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 lujvo<br>
1.1. =C2=A0 direct/=E2=80=9Cmechanical=E2=80=9D derivations from gismu<br>
1.1.1. from alternating/broad definitions<br>
1.1.2. from notes<br>
1.1.3. eliminate annoying places with =E2=80=9Czi&#39;o=E2=80=9D<br>
1.2. =C2=A0 semantic derivations from gismu<br>
1.2.1. Think of any gismu=E2=80=93gismu combinations which would make sense=
<br>
1.2.2. cmavo + gismu<br>
1.2.3 =C2=A0standad lujvo conventions from lujpap.3 (gasnu, rinka, zanru, =
=E2=80=A6)<br>
1.2.4. =E2=80=9Cto&#39;e=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cna&#39;e=E2=80=9D variants, =
when it makes sense<br>
1.3. =C2=A0 fu&#39;ivla/cmavo/lujvo/cmevla + fu&#39;ivla<br>
1.4. =C2=A0 cmevla + fu&#39;ivla/lujvo/(cmavo)<br>
<br>
2. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 fu&#39;ivla<br>
2.1. =C2=A0 stage 3<br>
2.1.1. semantic derivations from gismu if lujvo is not possible<br>
2.2. =C2=A0 stage 4<br>
2.2.1. short established, often used stage-3 fu&#39;ivla (if possible)<br>
2.2.X. other than that, try to prefer stage-3 before stage-4<br>
2.3. =C2=A0 any stage<br>
2.3.1 =C2=A0=E2=80=9Croot=E2=80=9D fu&#39;ivla: A new fu&#39;ivla which is =
created as a base for a<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0broad range of new lujvo (see 1.3.)<br>
<br>
This is only a rough stragegy I have worked out for my personal work.<br>
But one main benefit of it is that minimizes bias from other languages<br>
(at least I hope so), especially the mechanical gismu derivations.<br>
Shoehorning words from other languages into lujvo does not always work<br>
well in Lojban. However, this strategy is still young and may change.<br>
<br>
To help you understand what I have just written down, here I give you<br>
some examples:<br>
1.1.1. =E2=80=9Cpinji=E2=80=9D is defined as =E2=80=9Cpenis/cliotris=E2=80=
=9D =E2=86=92 This leads to two new<br>
lujvo, one explicitly for =E2=80=9Cpenis=E2=80=9D (=E2=80=9Cnakpinji=E2=80=
=9D) and<br>
=E2=80=9Ccliotris=E2=80=9D (=E2=80=9Cfetpinji=E2=80=9D)<br>
<br>
1.1.2. The idea is whenever a certain (undefined) lujvo is<br>
mentioned in the notes, you have a new lujvo idea. One example is<br>
=E2=80=9Ctsapyvu&#39;i=E2=80=9D, mentioned in =E2=80=9Cvrusi=E2=80=9D; it i=
s now properly defined. :-)<br>
<br>
1.1.3. =E2=80=9Czilkei=E2=80=9D: x1 is a toy. But still problematic for now=
; there is no<br>
real broadly used convention how to kill a certain place. This is<br>
because the =E2=80=9Czi&#39;o=E2=80=9D behaves grammatically strange becaus=
e it acts like a<br>
sumti. There is no convention except for killing x1 (=E2=80=9Czi&#39;o brod=
e=E2=80=9D),<br>
which would be =E2=80=9Czilbo&#39;e=E2=80=9D. But what about killing other =
places?<br>
Other gismu which certainly would deserve to get their places killed<br>
with =E2=80=9Czi&#39;o=E2=80=9D include: =E2=80=9Clatna=E2=80=9D (x3, x4), =
=E2=80=9Cbotpi=E2=80=9D (x4).<br>
<br>
1.2.1. Most words I created on jbovlaste recently fall into this<br>
category. I looked at =E2=80=9Cbalre=E2=80=9D (blade) for example and came =
up with<br>
=E2=80=9Cjincyba&#39;e=E2=80=9D (=E2=80=9Cblade=E2=80=9D of scissors). I ba=
sically go through the gismu<br>
list alphametically and look on gismu X and start to ask myself:<br>
=E2=80=9CWhich variants of this gismu are the most obvious to me?=E2=80=9D.=
<br>
<br>
1.2.2. =E2=80=9Cte&#39;o zei dugri=E2=80=9D: natural logarithm (literally e=
-type of<br>
logarithm=E2=80=9D :-)). =E2=80=9Crarna dugri=E2=80=9D sounds too artificia=
l to me.<br>
<br>
1.2.3. =E2=80=9Cfazgau=E2=80=9D: annoy (non-agentative), =E2=80=9Cfazgau=E2=
=80=9D: annoy (agentative)<br>
<br>
1.2.4. =E2=80=9Ctaske=E2=80=9D (=E2=80=9Cthirsty=E2=80=9D) lead me to =E2=
=80=9Ctoltaske=E2=80=9D (=E2=80=9Cquenched=E2=80=9D) and<br>
=E2=80=9Cnortaske=E2=80=9D (roughly =E2=80=9Cneither thirsty nor quenched=
=E2=80=9D). Similar for<br>
=E2=80=9Cxagji=E2=80=9D.<br>
<br>
1.3. =C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cxy. zei kantu=E2=80=9D: X-ray (suggested in CLL, no en=
try in jbovlaste<br>
yet), but such words would be probably rare<br>
<br>
1.4. =C2=A0 This is still hypothetical, could be used for concepts which ar=
e<br>
=E2=80=9Cnamed=E2=80=9D after a person in other languages. One possibility =
would be<br>
=E2=80=9CTuring machine=E2=80=9D. If we think of the hypothetized lujvo =E2=
=80=9Csucyskami=E2=80=9D as<br>
=E2=80=9Cabstract machine=E2=80=9D, then =E2=80=9CTuring machine=E2=80=9D c=
ould be =E2=80=9Cturing. zei<br>
sucyskami=E2=80=9D. All of this is hypothetical. Note that when one wants t=
o<br>
combine a person name with a /gismu/, one could consider creating a<br>
stage-3 fu&#39;ivla insted. Example: =E2=80=9CGraham=E2=80=99s number=E2=80=
=9D<br>
could be lojbanized as =E2=80=9Cgry&#39;ym zei namcu=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cn=
amcrgra&#39;ama=E2=80=9D (which<br>
destroys the original name a bit).<br>
<br>
2.1.1. basically most of flora and fauna =E2=80=A6 Need I say more? Other<b=
r>
people are much more skilled in this area than I am.<br>
<br>
2.2.1. Hypothetized example: =E2=80=9Cbrodrgrolisi=E2=80=9D =E2=86=92 =E2=
=80=9Cgrolisi=E2=80=9D; same<br>
definition as the original. I have never seen this in practice yet. :-(<br>
Strange, as this strategy is outlined in the CLL. Most people start<br>
right away with a stage-4 fu&#39;ivla, even if it=E2=80=99s about a uncommo=
n<br>
concept.<br>
<br>
2.3.1. Very hypothetical; I could imagine this becoming useful for<br>
specialist subjects which have many words sharing a single concept.<br>
<br>
<br>
I hope you will now understand my new strategy. You can see it as a<br>
=E2=80=9CToDo list=E2=80=9D if you wish to. ;-)<br>
<br>
Now back to the New Year=E2=80=99s resolution. Now that I have presented my=
<br>
rough brivla creation stragety, then I could state some clearer goal:<br>
<br>
Define all lujvo which would result from 1.1.1. and 1.1.2.<br>
<br>
The lujvo which would result from this would make a) more vocabulary<br>
(obviously) and b) probably a solid base for even more complex concepts.<br=
>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
--<br>
Wuzzy<br>
XMPP: <a href=3D"mailto:Wuzzy2@jabber.ccc.de">Wuzzy2@jabber.ccc.de</a><br>
E-Mail: <a href=3D"mailto:wuzzy2@mail.ru">wuzzy2@mail.ru</a><br>
<br>
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