Received: from mail-ea0-f188.google.com ([209.85.215.188]:35877) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1W5uHd-0000IP-0H for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 01:39:54 -0800 Received: by mail-ea0-f188.google.com with SMTP id l9sf911721eaj.25 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 01:39:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=zuGB1tgumpWxXXtN0UZxK/4kTM2ts2Gts5wxeHRBnU8=; b=j0GZDGx4lV5CZNVjFSUNUV3D5xOcmGCzUuOjwYgsjr1ClPbj2FGgmxKKj/mamYNrQO 9Jrw8gl1zWwvePAI/qUS/qv+FSo20uiIMijQS5qdwg43fe/997tTm3oHn/MNy4i4YuEW 2AAyPgvBgIswLVvmVNOTJcxEEOMKTbOszEcWcrOuiYHLkbtXktzKITh6q05l4aTmUp8H pIbAcRSxGdiyZM7Mc8r1yEblTLoYVHRE4k1NtAbgNasDn2jJiIvMugzCdSnUU0OtYynd Em/hA63e/QJVeMMxar4X4MoVB5d2FqpJaJaKvCiSAkXRiam2XrnPyL/HrNPDumld9a1E IrOg== X-Received: by 10.180.74.164 with SMTP id u4mr157361wiv.0.1390383573790; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 01:39:33 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.79.39 with SMTP id g7ls422901wix.36.canary; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 01:39:33 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.180.212.3 with SMTP id ng3mr950824wic.1.1390383573222; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 01:39:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lb0-x22d.google.com (mail-lb0-x22d.google.com [2a00:1450:4010:c04::22d]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t10si169824wiw.3.2014.01.22.01.39.33 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 22 Jan 2014 01:39:33 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lurifax@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c04::22d as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c04::22d; Received: by mail-lb0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id y6so110666lbh.4 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 01:39:33 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.152.164.166 with SMTP id yr6mr334319lab.1.1390383573012; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 01:39:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.168.100 with HTTP; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 01:39:12 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <52DC4E78.2050000@lojban.org> References: <52DC4E78.2050000@lojban.org> From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dan_Ros=E9n?= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 10:39:12 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] HISTORIAN/general discussion: po (GOI) and sumtcita To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lurifax@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lurifax@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c04::22d as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lurifax@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11349a02f894a904f08be624 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --001a11349a02f894a904f08be624 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Interesting! What would be the semantic difference between {lo SELBRI be TAG SUMTI} and {lo SELBRI pe TAG SUMTI}? ki'e ba spuda mi'e danr On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 11:15 PM, Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG wrote: > On 1/19/2014 2:28 PM, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > >> (replies to the main list please) >> >> So it turns out that GOI (goi, ne, no'u, pe, po, po'e, po'u) can >> take sumtcita. In >> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK%20Section:%20Subordinators , I >> asserted that for pe and ne (and presumably po, athough I didn't say >> that) this means "sumtcita applies to the relevant sumti", which is >> *HUGELY* useful; using "le broda po fa'a le brodi" in this sense >> comes up *every day* with the jbocifnu, usually in the form of >> "don't pee on the X" :). >> >> So this is a thing in the language that literally *does not appear*, >> even in brief reference, in the CLL. >> >> My questions are: >> >> >> 0. Can someone who has the old official parse running confirm that >> this works there too and isn't some knid of weird regression? >> > > Nora has confirmed this. > > > 1. Does anyone know, historically, why this works? >> > > Because we thought it might be "hugely useful", though we weren't thinking > of jbocifnu. Jorge mentions examples in CLL 9.10. > > Here is my thinking through of why (historically) it is so, based on the > way JCB originally described relative phrases in L1, and considering how we > got from there to here. I hope this comes out more or less clear. > > GOI attaches a relative phrase, i.e. a sumti, to the main sumti as an > identifying or incidental modifier. Unlike a relative clause, there is no > explicit bridi, nor a relative sumti, because relative phrases are > degenerative forms of relative clauses. > > In English, identifying relative phrases have an implied verb "is" (lojban > "du") > "the author (who is) Shakespeare ..." > or a possessive (various Lojban bridi from ponse to srana to steci to > mapti to ckini most of which map to ne/pe) > "the dog (who is) John's" or "the arm of John". > > Incidental phrases are largely distinguished from identifying phrases in > English by context, and sometimes by comma delimiting > "the children who are John's" vs "the children, who are John's," > > Loglan/Lojban broadened these natlang categories somewhat, and added > explicit markers for alienable/inalienable ownership. goi itself was added > for redefinition purposes (implied verb is "hereinafter referred to as") > > Any sort of thing that could be a grammatical sumti for the implied verb > can be used on the right side of GOI. sumtcita-tagged sumti qualify, and a > bare sumtcita also qualifies (with a null implied sumti and implied ku > added to the implied relative bridi). > > You can also use tenses, which are the easiest bare tcita to exemplify: > la lojbab pe ca cu ciska > la lojbab pe ba cu morsi > > Thus we allow any sumtcita to follow a GOI, with or without an attached > sumti. The tagged sumti (or implied sumti) is an attached place on the > bridi implied by the GOI. (Note that we verified that you can even use a > bare FA tcita, though that seems rather meaningless. "la broda pe fi" ??? > > > 2. What should this mean with each member of GOI? "With X it's >> meaningless don't do that" is a reasonable response; "goi" is an >> obvious target there. >> > > I doubt that we tried to define it with each member of GOI, but if you > remember that each GOI has an implied relative bridi, along with an > indication of incidental vs identifying, they should all work out. The > tcita sumti is a place on that implied relative bridi. > > The vaguest, as implied above, may be "ne/pe" because any of several > brivla could be implied as the bridi. But that issue is probably one you > have to address in defining ne and pe - the use of sumtcita isn't the > problem. > > tcita used with po'u and no'u may be hard to explain to a natlang speaker, > because we don't tend to think of the two sides of a "du" bridi as being > taggable. > > lojbab > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --001a11349a02f894a904f08be624 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Interesting!

What would be the semantic difference = between {lo SELBRI be TAG SUMTI} and {lo SELBRI pe TAG SUMTI}?

ki= 9;e ba spuda mi'e danr


On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 11:15 PM, Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - = LLG <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
On 1/19/2014 2:28 PM, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
(replies to the main list please)

So it turns out that GOI (goi, ne, no'u, pe, po, po'e, po'u) ca= n
take sumtcita. =A0In
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK%20Section:%20Su= bordinators , I
asserted that for pe and ne (and presumably po, athough I didn't say that) this means "sumtcita applies to the relevant sumti", which = is
*HUGELY* useful; using "le broda po fa'a le brodi" in this se= nse
comes up *every day* with the jbocifnu, usually in the form of
"don't pee on the X" :).

So this is a thing in the language that literally *does not appear*,
even in brief reference, in the CLL.

My questions are:


0. =A0Can someone who has the old official parse running confirm that
this works there too and isn't some knid of weird regression?

Nora has confirmed this.


1. =A0Does anyone know, historically, why this works?

Because we thought it might be "hugely useful", though we weren&#= 39;t thinking of jbocifnu. =A0Jorge mentions examples in CLL 9.10.

Here is my thinking through of why (historically) it is so, based on the wa= y JCB originally described relative phrases in L1, and considering how we g= ot from there to here. =A0I hope this comes out more or less clear.

GOI attaches a relative phrase, i.e. a sumti, to the main sumti as an ident= ifying or incidental modifier. =A0Unlike a relative clause, there is no exp= licit bridi, nor a relative sumti, because relative phrases are degenerativ= e forms of relative clauses.

In English, identifying relative phrases have an implied verb "is"= ; (lojban "du")
"the author (who is) Shakespeare ..."
or a possessive (various Lojban bridi from ponse to srana to steci to mapti= to ckini most of which map to ne/pe)
"the dog (who is) John's" or "the arm of John".

Incidental phrases are largely distinguished from identifying phrases in En= glish by context, and sometimes by comma delimiting
"the children who are John's" vs "the children, who are = John's,"

Loglan/Lojban broadened these natlang categories somewhat, and added explic= it markers for alienable/inalienable ownership. =A0goi itself was added for= redefinition purposes (implied verb is "hereinafter referred to as&qu= ot;)

Any sort of thing that could be a grammatical sumti for the implied verb ca= n be used on the right side of GOI. sumtcita-tagged sumti qualify, and a ba= re sumtcita also qualifies (with a null implied sumti and implied ku added = to the implied relative bridi).

You can also use tenses, which are the easiest bare tcita to exemplify:
la lojbab pe ca cu ciska
la lojbab pe ba cu morsi

Thus we allow any sumtcita to follow a GOI, with or without an attached sum= ti. =A0The tagged sumti (or implied sumti) is an attached place on the brid= i implied by the GOI. =A0(Note that we verified that you can even use a bar= e FA tcita, though that seems rather meaningless. "la broda pe fi"= ; ???


2. =A0What should this mean with each member of GOI? =A0"With X it'= ;s
meaningless don't do that" is a reasonable response; "goi&quo= t; is an
obvious target there.

I doubt that we tried to define it with each member of GOI, but if you reme= mber that each GOI has an implied relative bridi, along with an indication = of incidental vs identifying, they should all work out. =A0The tcita sumti = is a place on that implied relative bridi.

The vaguest, as implied above, may be "ne/pe" because any of seve= ral brivla could be implied as the bridi. =A0But that issue is probably one= you have to address in defining ne and pe - the use of sumtcita isn't = the problem.

tcita used with po'u and no'u may be hard to explain to a natlang s= peaker, because we don't tend to think of the two sides of a "du&q= uot; bridi as being taggable.

lojbab


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