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Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 23:41:28 -0200
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Subject: Re: [lojban] [oz] {binxo}
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Felipe_Gon=E7alves_Assis?= <felipeg.assis@gmail.com>
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By the way, here is a piece of Lojban using object-only binxo:

{filtce fa lo ka ze'e jmive .i se tadji lo ka gasnu lo nu lo ka morsi cu
binxo lo ka jmive}

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.


On 25 January 2014 23:08, Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis <felipeg.assis@gmail.com=
>wrote:

>
>
>
> On 25 January 2014 22:18, selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>> Sure, {co'a} is often enough, and I use it a lot myself. It just lacks
>> the sense of transformation that I get from {binxo}.
>>
>> I would say that {ro nu binxo lo ka broda cu nu co'a broda .i ku'i na ku
>> ro nu co'a broda cu nu binxo lo ka broda}. That is, to me, {binxo} is ab=
out
>> an experiencer undergoing a change (where experiencer should be understo=
od
>> loosely in the thematic role sense. Certainly a binxo1 need not be
>> sentient); it is making a claim specifically about the binxo1. {co'a} on
>> the other hand just says that some event starts to occur, with no focus =
on
>> any of its parts. That's why I don't consider them the same, but as I sa=
id,
>> {co'a} is always true when {binxo} is, though not vice-versa. The
>> difference is often subtle or completely invisible, but sometimes it isn=
't.
>>
>>
> Hmmm... How would you compare then property-binxo and {co'a} to
> {co'arkai}? I feel that your experiencer has just a special place in the
> discourse, but otherwise no distinctive ontological characteristic...
>
> I do agree that object-binxo has a distinctive sense of transformation,
> which to me is to say that an object either comes to existence or ceases =
to
> exist. That is not only about ontological commitment (to me, you may divi=
de
> the world in objects in more than one way), but it has implications on ho=
w
> you can use the objects in other sentences, for example, and it always ha=
s
> a salient rhetorical effect.
>
> mu'o
> mi'e .asiz.
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>By the way, here is a piece of Lojban using obje=
ct-only binxo:<br><br></div>{filtce fa lo ka ze&#39;e jmive .i se tadji lo =
ka gasnu lo nu lo ka morsi cu binxo lo ka jmive}<br><br></div><div>mu&#39;o=
<br>

mi&#39;e .asiz.<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote">On 25 January 2014 23:08, Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis <span =
dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:felipeg.assis@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank=
">felipeg.assis@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"im">On 25 January=
 2014 22:18, selpa&#39;i <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:seladwa@gm=
x.de" target=3D"_blank">seladwa@gmx.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Sure, {co&#39;a} is often=
 enough, and I use it a lot myself. It just lacks the sense of transformati=
on that I get from {binxo}.<br>


<br>
I would say that {ro nu binxo lo ka broda cu nu co&#39;a broda .i ku&#39;i =
na ku ro nu co&#39;a broda cu nu binxo lo ka broda}. That is, to me, {binxo=
} is about an experiencer undergoing a change (where experiencer should be =
understood loosely in the thematic role sense. Certainly a binxo1 need not =
be sentient); it is making a claim specifically about the binxo1. {co&#39;a=
} on the other hand just says that some event starts to occur, with no focu=
s on any of its parts. That&#39;s why I don&#39;t consider them the same, b=
ut as I said, {co&#39;a} is always true when {binxo} is, though not vice-ve=
rsa. The difference is often subtle or completely invisible, but sometimes =
it isn&#39;t.<div>

<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Hmmm... How would you comp=
are then property-binxo and {co&#39;a} to {co&#39;arkai}? I feel that your =
experiencer has just a special place in the discourse, but otherwise no dis=
tinctive ontological characteristic...<br>

</div><div><br></div><div>I do agree that object-binxo has a distinctive se=
nse of transformation, which to me is to say that an object either comes to=
 existence or ceases to exist. That is not only about ontological commitmen=
t (to me, you may divide the world in objects in more than one way), but it=
 has implications on how you can use the objects in other sentences, for ex=
ample, and it always has a salient rhetorical effect.<br>

</div><div class=3D"im"><div><br></div><div>mu&#39;o<br>mi&#39;e .asiz.<br>=
</div></div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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