Received: from mail-lb0-f186.google.com ([209.85.217.186]:49019) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1W7Pm3-0001it-1O for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 05:29:27 -0800 Received: by mail-lb0-f186.google.com with SMTP id y6sf748452lbh.3 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 05:28:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=lyJt6af58IGDI0YyXRaZNisS/ZTMlnjGuUcLsZHDzmU=; b=k0IPU+ZW2BFMGWz7BsqgyeX7k+Ozjkfza96YsAimYlLk0yJ27yY7//412JnCVPIrY8 UtUmZ3nq5OJarDgblZFnAFJ3pX+24pzW44KcyXxzJoknkKJqVICJxFhJZPBxgW0YRtec 5upPIY/FK7ghskdsL1Gb4AGfkFfQA47mBTpTYnwTLyUeI3Qo4A/54ETwBkntYtvvuV5Z +hEj5LRO3YNREx1r6ze0LCkl0VuaDMbYs+LRyOSpox/0H8S6klginQD+RftIrVn7smZi 10jvGq7izg1OK7l6nfCfuM2fMz/YWDnXirjH01Xt4dxvsadH3DzeR7fGFf82SsqBqc4A 8eYw== X-Received: by 10.152.37.35 with SMTP id v3mr3427laj.24.1390742915118; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 05:28:35 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.153.7.194 with SMTP id de2ls28036lad.5.gmail; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 05:28:34 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.112.60.198 with SMTP id j6mr12883784lbr.8.1390742914756; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 05:28:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-x232.google.com (mail-wg0-x232.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c00::232]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id th6si3238580bkb.1.2014.01.26.05.28.34 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 26 Jan 2014 05:28:34 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::232 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::232; Received: by mail-wg0-f50.google.com with SMTP id l18so4632077wgh.29 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 05:28:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.2.70 with SMTP id 6mr16904166wjs.25.1390742914476; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 05:28:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.194.82.135 with HTTP; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 05:28:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <52E50068.7030804@gmx.de> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 17:28:34 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] [oz] {ka'e} vs. {su'o mu'ei} From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::232 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b3a8174642f6404f0df9190 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --047d7b3a8174642f6404f0df9190 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable According to la xalbo {lo mlatu ka'e nenri lo botpi} means that a cat can be inside a bottle (if e.g. that bottle is big enough) but i can't say {lo skami ka'e djica} unless computers have emotions. Of course, as usual it all depends on context but what {ka'e} does is that it shows semantic relations (cat can be in a bottle, cats cannot breathe water etc.) However, {su'omu'ei} creates imaginary worlds. Sorry for such a short explanation. The new version of my subjunctive system (that is supposedly equal to the one de facto used by Nick Nicholas at the time he was writing Lojban for Beginners) will be presented later. On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 4:48 PM, Felipe Gon=C3=A7alves Assis < felipeg.assis@gmail.com> wrote: > Ok. > > I didn't understand the link you sent. Is it the correct? > > > On 26 January 2014 10:32, selpa'i wrote: > >> la .asiz. cu cusku di'e >> >>> You use {mu'ei} exactly once in the whole translation: >>> {no da po'u na'e bo lo tolv=C4=97rnu be mu'u mi cu su'o mu'ei p=C4= =8Dnsi lo nu >>> b=C4=81tci lo tai cm=C4=81lu} (lion speaking) >>> >>> >>> Is it purely stylistic (more syllables can be more emphatic, or it may >>> be the lion's style), or do you by any chance make a distinction betwee= n >>> {ka'e} and {su'o mu'ei}, or between {bi'ai} and {ro mu'ei}? >>> >> >> I know that {su'o mu'ei} and {ka'e} are suppposed to be the same, but I >> think I do see a difference in emphasis. In this case the difference is >> between "nobody would ever" and "nobody can", sort of. For me: >> >> ka'e X broda =3D=3D lo nu broda cu cumki X >> >> So it's a much simpler statement than "there exists at least one possibl= e >> world where broda happens" even if they are truth funtionally the same. >> >> Replacing {su'o mu'ei} with {ka'e} in the Oz sentence makes it sound >> different to me for some reason. It probably shouldn't. Or maybe they >> *aren't* equivalent. I'm not sure. All I know is that I don't seem to us= e >> them interchangeably myself. >> >> mi'e la selpa'i mu'o >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --047d7b3a8174642f6404f0df9190 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
According to la xalbo {lo mlatu ka'e nenri lo botpi} m= eans that a cat can be inside a bottle (if e.g. that bottle is big enough) = but i can't say {lo skami ka'e djica} unless computers have emotion= s.

Of course, as usual it all depends on context but what {ka&#= 39;e} does is that it shows semantic relations (cat can be in a bottle, cat= s cannot breathe water etc.)

However, {su'omu&= #39;ei} creates imaginary worlds.

Sorry for such a short explanation. The new version of = my subjunctive system (that is supposedly equal to the one de facto used by= Nick Nicholas at the time he was writing Lojban for Beginners) will be pre= sented later.


On Sun,= Jan 26, 2014 at 4:48 PM, Felipe Gon=C3=A7alves Assis <= ;felipeg.assis= @gmail.com> wrote:
Ok.

I didn't und= erstand the link you sent. Is it the correct?


On 26 January= 2014 10:32, selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de> wrote:
la .asiz. cu cusku di'e
You use {mu'ei} exactly once in the whole translation:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0{no da po'u na'e bo lo tolv=C4=97rnu be mu'u mi cu= su'o mu'ei p=C4=8Dnsi lo nu
b=C4=81tci lo tai cm=C4=81lu} (lion speaking)


Is it purely stylistic (more syllables can be more emphatic, or it may
be the lion's style), or do you by any chance make a distinction betwee= n
{ka'e} and =C2=A0{su'o mu'ei}, or between {bi'ai} and {ro m= u'ei}?

I know that {su'o mu'ei} and {ka'e} are suppposed to be the sam= e, but I think I do see a difference in emphasis. In this case the differen= ce is between "nobody would ever" and "nobody can", sor= t of. For me:

ka'e X broda =3D=3D lo nu broda cu cumki X

So it's a much simpler statement than "there exists at least one p= ossible world where broda happens" even if they are truth funtionally = the same.

Replacing {su'o mu'ei} with {ka'e} in the Oz sentence makes it = sound different to me for some reason. It probably shouldn't. Or maybe = they *aren't* equivalent. I'm not sure. All I know is that I don= 9;t seem to use them interchangeably myself.

mi'e la selpa'i mu'o


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
--047d7b3a8174642f6404f0df9190--