Received: from mail-ee0-f56.google.com ([74.125.83.56]:59178) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1W7R04-0002dH-7R for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 06:48:00 -0800 Received: by mail-ee0-f56.google.com with SMTP id b57sf615727eek.1 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 06:47:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=JyWW+YONh1Kn/5C0WOXmojUhfE0awL4/7XlL/mUom4A=; b=ygJVdCYrNAMOig0kypLxcQ/+Z3evjJ+A4KSHa+UoJ6zQpgyKLrSwXdJTjjfv47qmGw eRiXWqSRLIurlrjEzlSt4ySLhS4WpcpusRLb0PWRHvm06LeYU8RDjeYCBW+JCc8xznxN BldllI/LAG3UKPH3pgcVD8ViPf7YcpZvwZhxYvnobLMamX5jNoTuJzXirTl3c9BlRKBW COtPWiEbHm0w+VQoQOZXMT50GElkcZXtwo8m76XbJ0cPSf/YcGZJMDtiF/dFm1n3KXVR SqxpnT6LecTVCMGmF2BQ75HAu9IsN8T6VLS9X+ALz1KBPao7aqwISRH59x2hx8N94doJ LWAw== X-Received: by 10.152.221.8 with SMTP id qa8mr1737lac.26.1390747662074; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 06:47:42 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.28.98 with SMTP id a2ls338533lah.74.gmail; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 06:47:41 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.112.64.203 with SMTP id q11mr13132673lbs.10.1390747661500; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 06:47:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-x231.google.com (mail-ig0-x231.google.com [2607:f8b0:4001:c05::231]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id w8si3393820bkn.0.2014.01.26.06.47.41 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 26 Jan 2014 06:47:41 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of felipeg.assis@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4001:c05::231 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4001:c05::231; Received: by mail-ig0-f177.google.com with SMTP id k19so6764534igc.4 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 06:47:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.50.137 with SMTP id c9mr13251048igo.42.1390747659958; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 06:47:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.223.168 with HTTP; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 06:47:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <52E50068.7030804@gmx.de> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 12:47:39 -0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] [oz] {ka'e} vs. {su'o mu'ei} From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Felipe_Gon=E7alves_Assis?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: felipeg.assis@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of felipeg.assis@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4001:c05::231 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=felipeg.assis@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bdc07b23e81a304f0e0ac67 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --047d7bdc07b23e81a304f0e0ac67 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok, gleki, I'll have to wait, then. But I must note that this use of {ka'e} is still exactly how I use {su'o mu'ei}. I think what makes xalbo's sentences distinctive is that they are generic po'o. Also, possible worlds are not imaginary! Imaginary worlds, as in worlds imagined by someone, exist in the actual world as much as thoughts and feelings do. Possible worlds are typically infinite and don't need anyone imagining them to exist. Furthermore, some people (e.g., Hegel) even defend that you can imagine impossible things (which is to say that in some possible world someone imagines an impossible thing). That stated, I am still very interested in reading new ideas about the subjunctive. mu'o mi'e .asiz. On 26 January 2014 11:28, Gleki Arxokuna wrote= : > According to la xalbo {lo mlatu ka'e nenri lo botpi} means that a cat can > be inside a bottle (if e.g. that bottle is big enough) but i can't say {l= o > skami ka'e djica} unless computers have emotions. > > Of course, as usual it all depends on context but what {ka'e} does is tha= t > it shows semantic relations (cat can be in a bottle, cats cannot breathe > water etc.) > > However, {su'omu'ei} creates imaginary worlds. > > Sorry for such a short explanation. The new version of my subjunctive > system (that is supposedly equal to the one de facto used by Nick Nichola= s > at the time he was writing Lojban for Beginners) will be presented later. > > > On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 4:48 PM, Felipe Gon=C3=A7alves Assis < > felipeg.assis@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Ok. >> >> I didn't understand the link you sent. Is it the correct? >> >> >> On 26 January 2014 10:32, selpa'i wrote: >> >>> la .asiz. cu cusku di'e >>> >>>> You use {mu'ei} exactly once in the whole translation: >>>> {no da po'u na'e bo lo tolv=C4=97rnu be mu'u mi cu su'o mu'ei p=C4= =8Dnsi lo nu >>>> b=C4=81tci lo tai cm=C4=81lu} (lion speaking) >>>> >>>> >>>> Is it purely stylistic (more syllables can be more emphatic, or it may >>>> be the lion's style), or do you by any chance make a distinction betwe= en >>>> {ka'e} and {su'o mu'ei}, or between {bi'ai} and {ro mu'ei}? >>>> >>> >>> I know that {su'o mu'ei} and {ka'e} are suppposed to be the same, but I >>> think I do see a difference in emphasis. In this case the difference is >>> between "nobody would ever" and "nobody can", sort of. For me: >>> >>> ka'e X broda =3D=3D lo nu broda cu cumki X >>> >>> So it's a much simpler statement than "there exists at least one >>> possible world where broda happens" even if they are truth funtionally = the >>> same. >>> >>> Replacing {su'o mu'ei} with {ka'e} in the Oz sentence makes it sound >>> different to me for some reason. It probably shouldn't. Or maybe they >>> *aren't* equivalent. I'm not sure. All I know is that I don't seem to u= se >>> them interchangeably myself. >>> >>> mi'e la selpa'i mu'o >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --047d7bdc07b23e81a304f0e0ac67 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ok, gleki, I'll have to wait, then. But I must no= te that this use of {ka'e} is still exactly how I use {su'o mu'= ei}. I think what makes xalbo's sentences distinctive is that they are = generic po'o.

Also, possible worlds are not imaginary! Imaginary worlds, as in worlds= imagined by someone, exist in the actual world as much as thoughts and fee= lings do. Possible worlds are typically infinite and don't need anyone = imagining them to exist. Furthermore, some people (e.g., Hegel) even defend= that you can imagine impossible things (which is to say that in some possi= ble world someone imagines an impossible thing).

That stated, I am still very interested in reading new ideas about the = subjunctive.

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.




On 26 January 201= 4 11:28, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
According to la xalbo {lo m= latu ka'e nenri lo botpi} means that a cat can be inside a bottle (if e= .g. that bottle is big enough) but i can't say {lo skami ka'e djica= } unless computers have emotions.

Of course, as usual it all depends on context but what {ka&#= 39;e} does is that it shows semantic relations (cat can be in a bottle, cat= s cannot breathe water etc.)

However, {su'omu&= #39;ei} creates imaginary worlds.

Sorry for such a short explanation. The new version of = my subjunctive system (that is supposedly equal to the one de facto used by= Nick Nicholas at the time he was writing Lojban for Beginners) will be pre= sented later.

On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 4:48 PM, Felipe Go= n=C3=A7alves Assis <felipeg.assis@gmail.com> wrote:
Ok.

I didn't und= erstand the link you sent. Is it the correct?


On 26 January= 2014 10:32, selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de> wrote:
la .asiz. cu cusku di'e
You use {mu'ei} exactly once in the whole translation:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0{no da po'u na'e bo lo tolv=C4=97rnu be mu'u mi cu= su'o mu'ei p=C4=8Dnsi lo nu
b=C4=81tci lo tai cm=C4=81lu} (lion speaking)


Is it purely stylistic (more syllables can be more emphatic, or it may
be the lion's style), or do you by any chance make a distinction betwee= n
{ka'e} and =C2=A0{su'o mu'ei}, or between {bi'ai} and {ro m= u'ei}?

I know that {su'o mu'ei} and {ka'e} are suppposed to be the sam= e, but I think I do see a difference in emphasis. In this case the differen= ce is between "nobody would ever" and "nobody can", sor= t of. For me:

ka'e X broda =3D=3D lo nu broda cu cumki X

So it's a much simpler statement than "there exists at least one p= ossible world where broda happens" even if they are truth funtionally = the same.

Replacing {su'o mu'ei} with {ka'e} in the Oz sentence makes it = sound different to me for some reason. It probably shouldn't. Or maybe = they *aren't* equivalent. I'm not sure. All I know is that I don= 9;t seem to use them interchangeably myself.

mi'e la selpa'i mu'o


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