Received: from mail-qa0-f59.google.com ([209.85.216.59]:37551) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1W8akt-0006He-Pb for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 11:25:06 -0800 Received: by mail-qa0-f59.google.com with SMTP id ii20sf565747qab.14 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 11:24:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=6cgeF0yr3fMq2fpxsLx4LM2NVh3xyxYHjIG3cJ0gUdI=; b=Te9uJqr2m+73mOK+2JUQYXv6iv/58QVRK9eMxAqOWjJWgkiQ8kFDSt5VF7/AAjOcVD 7UTJERC8BXhpNT2vbhmoEjmgzfVkfjqqdLJEY6XMGk0NWiGSj1QaFrFNgpJi/6zb68Em eltG3c5Qmme0cnKjKBSgIul8RzZPGp6Z1F5ngSX61X4BfV27CzsXykebN9vON+f2ioyc 87lC9jSCEUJwMp7CTHgHrLjPxXKgKXvHQVWPbHxetME2lBfwT5KyLGFdnrKc/iVZLTpP +oy1VH1hYlpNx5WBnYbuJlXM9l2wfWpzUJuVaWKZDxGTE2oxusUVR+4OdliMOPEjKZGr G+Mg== X-Received: by 10.50.79.228 with SMTP id m4mr185310igx.9.1391023493252; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 11:24:53 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.117.66 with SMTP id kc2ls478641igb.10.gmail; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 11:24:52 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.43.14.137 with SMTP id pq9mr2243154icb.12.1391023492716; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 11:24:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qc0-x231.google.com (mail-qc0-x231.google.com [2607:f8b0:400d:c01::231]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id mg5si351115qcb.0.2014.01.29.11.24.52 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 29 Jan 2014 11:24:52 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::231 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c01::231; Received: by mail-qc0-x231.google.com with SMTP id i8so3379264qcq.8 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 11:24:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.140.16.144 with SMTP id 16mr14247749qgb.54.1391023492582; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 11:24:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.96.3.3 with HTTP; Wed, 29 Jan 2014 11:24:52 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 14:24:52 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: About the difference in different semantic classifications (was: [lojban] "salty") From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::231 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c0b2dc266d2804f120e570 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --001a11c0b2dc266d2804f120e570 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 (I hope everyone was clear that accidentally left out "lo jinme") --gejyspa On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 12:22 PM, MorphemeAddict wrote: > Let's worry about possible new primary tastes when they're discovered. > Umami may be the last one, and it took a long time after the first four > were long known for it to be discovered (in 1908). > Besides, if there are more than five primary tastes, how does that affect > the gejyspa's sentence "But that argument is implicitly limiting a se > vrusi to one of the [add number here, or not] primary tastes."? > > stevo > > > > > On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 11:18 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 7:46 PM, Michael Turniansky < >> mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> But that argument is implicitly limiting a se vrusi to one of the five >>> primary tastes. >>> >> >> why five? there can be more primary tastes. >> >> >>> Not only can it be things like lo slari or lo kurki, it can be lo >>> tsapi or lo cpina or even lo jipci, lo rectu, lo ladru or even . And we >>> would (could) call the latter four in English "chickeny, meaty, dairy, >>> metallic". To say that something is salty is to assert that it tastes like >>> salt (NaCl and friends). It is not necessary to create a special word for >>> it. >>> >>> --gejyspa >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 1:45 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Once there was a question what organisms belong to {curnu}. >>>> The answer is that even snaked might be called "worms". If you don't >>>> like it invent a new classification. >>>> >>>> A more convincing example are words for taste: >>>> We can classify substances into: acids, alkali, sugars, salts etc. >>>> And we can classify them into: sweet, sour, umami, salty ... >>>> >>>> They are completely different and almost never intersect. >>>> Almost. >>>> Because "salty" coincides with "alkali" as alkali can be made the >>>> prototype of salty taste. Thus we need the same word for both >>>> classifications. >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>> From: Michael Turniansky >>>> Date: Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 6:35 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [lojban] "salty" >>>> To: lojban@googlegroups.com >>>> >>>> >>>> I also completely dislike the idea of adding experimental gismu, at >>>> least until baseline is finally lifted (and even then, in most cases), >>>> except in cases where absolutely necessary (and sarni and salni ain't >>>> them). In any case, your (lorxus'?) original argument is at best specious, >>>> because just like in languages such as English, the default for tersilna is >>>> zo'e, which means, in normal conversation, when you say "ko dunda lo silna >>>> mi" or "lo rectu cu se vrusi lo ka silna", your listener is going to assume >>>> "...be fi lo sodna be lo ratni be li papa kuku joi lo kliru be lo ratni be >>>> li paze", unless you specify otherwise, or you are working in lab with e.g. >>>> radium salts, or your listener is insane. >>>> >>>> There is really no need for people to always try to complicate >>>> matters by multiplying gismu (or using overly precise lujvo or fu'ivla) >>>> when not necessary, >>>> >>>> --gejyspa >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --001a11c0b2dc266d2804f120e570 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 (I hope everyone was clear that accidentally left o= ut "lo jinme")
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa



On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 12:22 PM, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail= .com> wrote:
Let's worry abo= ut possible new primary tastes when they're discovered. Umami may be th= e last one, and it took a long time after the first four were long known fo= r it to be discovered (in 1908).=C2=A0
Besides, if there are more than five primary tastes, how does that = affect the gejyspa's sentence "But that argume= nt is implicitly limiting a se vrusi to one of the [add number here, or not= ] primary tastes."?

stevo

=



On = Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 11:18 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@g= mail.com> wrote:



On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 7:46 PM, Michael Turniansky = <mturniansky@= gmail.com> wrote:
=C2=A0 But that argument is implicitly li= miting a se vrusi to one of the five primary tastes.

why five? there can be more primary tastes.
=
=C2=A0
=C2=A0Not only can it be things like lo slari or lo kurki= , it can be lo tsapi or lo cpina or even lo jipci, lo rectu, lo ladru or ev= en . =C2=A0And we would (could) call the latter four in English "chick= eny, meaty, dairy, metallic". To say that something is salty is to ass= ert that it tastes like salt (NaCl and friends). =C2=A0It is not necessary = to create a special word for it.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa



On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 1:45 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
Once there was a question what organisms = belong to {curnu}.
The answer is that even snaked might be called "worms". If you do= n't like it invent a new classification.

A more convincing example are words for taste:
We can classify su= bstances into: acids, alkali, sugars, salts etc.
And we can class= ify them into: sweet, sour, umami, salty ...

They are completely different and almost never intersect.
Almost.=
Because "salty" coincides with "alkali" = as alkali can be made the prototype of salty taste. Thus we need the same w= ord for both classifications.


---------- Forwarded mes= sage ----------
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] "salty"= ;
To: lojba= n@googlegroups.com


=C2=A0 I also completely= dislike the idea of adding experimental gismu, at least until baseline is = finally lifted =C2=A0(and even then, in most cases), except in cases where = absolutely necessary (and sarni and salni ain't them). =C2=A0In any cas= e, your (lorxus'?) original argument is at best specious, because just = like in languages such as English, the default for tersilna is zo'e, wh= ich means, in normal conversation, when you say "ko dunda =C2=A0lo sil= na mi" or "lo rectu cu se vrusi lo ka silna", your listener = is going to assume "...be fi lo sodna be lo ratni be li papa kuku joi = lo kliru=C2=A0be lo ratni be li paze", unless you specify otherwise, o= r you are working in lab with e.g. radium salts, or your listener is insane= . =C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 There is really no need for people to always t= ry to complicate matters by multiplying gismu (or using overly precise lujv= o or fu'ivla) when not necessary,

=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa

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