Received: from mail-wg0-f58.google.com ([74.125.82.58]:38361) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1W9TJA-0005Fw-7G for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 21:40:08 -0800 Received: by mail-wg0-f58.google.com with SMTP id z12sf600359wgg.23 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 21:39:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=3tvgq7beYUSiGaV2RR4yeuw1vOYcOTJ4486Gyp3EZy4=; b=K8E2+TT8iOd5OOJDIrYHd+KOVvkM1vCqFgq8KzabJA2pFOWWpsriMaKmbMBq3pdDK1 8xBLVA6X940MMsSBQ7v/61yqLiOEMT5AB4Ua5IhXlW2csSO+ZifUbytmOCThPUU2QsDf OFXcbSallHTjNM+ilpHXarLj7vsm/1O7MZgCUyb5OPP0T/oTKyNWHuTLhSEs7PmwANaz Sc7xtlc6Icm6w2mlxcmVoyOpa2dDPr5tUKq7Oy4zMSA4XGcnDTzdHMn7Sakv6zylNROS grsYAs6zyGbjmQe9hljclQwlobFRpQxjN6d2YJ5T3XKg41aG2nlnnXmm45xZX+q8vXUb ZdUA== X-Received: by 10.180.86.3 with SMTP id l3mr8621wiz.10.1391233192859; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 21:39:52 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.92.33 with SMTP id cj1ls206152wib.42.gmail; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 21:39:52 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.14.198.132 with SMTP id v4mr11044794een.6.1391233192393; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 21:39:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-x236.google.com (mail-wg0-x236.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c00::236]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id jb4si139027wic.0.2014.01.31.21.39.52 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 31 Jan 2014 21:39:52 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::236 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::236; Received: by mail-wg0-f54.google.com with SMTP id x13so10224436wgg.9 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 21:39:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.83.9 with SMTP id m9mr5010454wjy.39.1391233192274; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 21:39:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.194.82.135 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Jan 2014 21:39:52 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20140131225049.76d93fef@aol.com> References: <20140131225049.76d93fef@aol.com> Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2014 09:39:52 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Introduction to Lojban. How to quickly create sentences From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::236 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c3295e39b6af04f151b83e X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --001a11c3295e39b6af04f151b83e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Feb 1, 2014 at 1:50 AM, Wuzzy wrote: > An interesting project. > > But, oh god, why Google Docs? I hate this shit. > Because it's the only online presentation tool with commenting and possibility to export to at least PowerPoint format. > Anyways. To all newbies: Don=E2=80=99t trust this document, it has a cou= ple of > mistakes and is full of oversimplifications. But yeah, that=E2=80=99s the > problem with quick introductions. > > ---- > > =E2=80=9Cmi tavla do pa lo skina je lo xrula=E2=80=9D > This text is not grammatical. > Fixed. > > ---- > > =E2=80=9Ci pei do tugni ?=E2=80=9D is NOT =E2=80=9CDo you agree?=E2=80=9D= . First mistake: Lojban does > not known the question mark. Question marks are just ignored. Without punctuation the stucture of the text looks alien. > Remember this an introduction to Lojban, > not an introduction to weird alternative experimental orthographies. > > Second mistake: The word =E2=80=9Cpei=E2=80=9D is far fetched here. Actua= lly it=E2=80=99s a > question for emotion. Really? Then please explain what emotion is asked when saying a more precise {je'upei}. > But the English is clearly a simple yes/no > question. > So why not =E2=80=9Cxu=E2=80=9D? > =E2=80=9Ci xu do tugni=E2=80=9D would be much better. > > ---- > > Also the slides are full of oversimplifications. Okay, not surprising > for a short introduction. But these oversimplifications are wrong and > misleading. > Where else? > > =E2=80=9Cvanci coi la alis=E2=80=9D =3D =E2=80=9CGood evening, Alice.=E2= =80=9D > This is a bit far fetched, I think. This may be true for this very > context, but newbies may be lead to thinking this could be somehow > generalized. The text does not lose a way about the implications. > Far fetched where? I don't understand what's wrong. > > First, there are no such things as verbs and nouns in Lojban! Please explain what are verbs and nouns in general. And whether those terms are logical at all. My belief is that they are not. And if you start teaching newbies such terms as "sumti", "tanru" and "sumtcita" instead of intuitive "verbs", "compound verbs" and "prepositions" ... you'll get the current community of geeks. Most people are just frightened of those lojbanic terms. What you > are actually refering to is a completely different word class, a > brivla, in English we could call it =E2=80=9Crelation=E2=80=9D. > > > =E2=80=9Clo nei=E2=80=9D =3D =E2=80=9Coneself=E2=80=9D > Oh boy. Translating this with =E2=80=9Coneself=E2=80=9D is only correct i= n the context > of this example. But it can=E2=80=99t be generalized. > > There are some other oversimplifications. > > Perhaps it is a good idea to put a warning on the first slide that this > thing is a radical oversimplification of Lojban. Links to other > learning resources (except the wiki) would be useful. > > ---- > > Why do you introduce =E2=80=9Cmi'ai=E2=80=9D, an experimental cmavo? I do= n=E2=80=99t think it > is a good idea to introduce experimental stuff before even the basics > are tought. > Because otherwise we'd have to confess "There is no English "we" in Lojban. Yes, Lojban is logical and English "we" has a transparent meaning but Lojban lacks it for an unknown reason." > > ---- > > Normally, I would have edited this document right away without > complaining, just improving stuff. See the license? You can copy it and fork it and export it to at least PowerPoint format and the convert using LibreOffice to what you need. > But since this is on Google Docs and > Google Docs does not export the file to an open AND editable format like > OpenDocument, I am not willing to edit it. :-( > > -- > Wuzzy > XMPP: Wuzzy2@jabber.ccc.de > E-Mail: wuzzy2@mail.ru > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --001a11c3295e39b6af04f151b83e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Sat, Feb 1, 2014 at 1:50 AM, Wuzzy <almikes@aol.com> wrote:
An interesting project.

But, oh god, why Google Docs? I hate this shit.

Because it's the only online presentation tool with commenting= and possibility to export to at least PowerPoint format.


Anyways. =C2=A0To all newbies: Don=E2=80=99t trust this document, it has a = couple of
mistakes and is full of oversimplifications. But yeah, that=E2=80=99s the problem with quick introductions.

----

=E2=80=9Cmi tavla do pa lo skina je lo xrula=E2=80=9D
This text is not grammatical.
Fixed.
=C2=A0<= /div>

----

=E2=80=9Ci pei do tugni ?=E2=80=9D is NOT =E2=80=9CDo you agree?=E2=80=9D. = First mistake: Lojban does
not known the question mark.

Question marks= are just ignored. Without punctuation the stucture of the text looks alien= .
=C2=A0
Remember this an introduction to Lojban,
not an introduction to weird alternative experimental orthographies.

Second mistake: The word =E2=80=9Cpei=E2=80=9D is far fetched here. Actuall= y it=E2=80=99s a
question for emotion.

Really? Then please e= xplain what emotion is asked when saying a more precise {je'upei}.
=C2=A0
But the English is clearly a simple yes/no
question.
So why not =E2=80=9Cxu=E2=80=9D?
=E2=80=9Ci xu do tugni=E2=80=9D would be much better.

----

Also the slides are full of oversimplifications. Okay, not surprising
for a short introduction. But these oversimplifications are wrong and
misleading.
Where else?
=C2=A0

=E2=80=9Cvanci coi la alis=E2=80=9D =3D =E2=80=9CGood evening, Alice.=E2=80= =9D
This is a bit far fetched, I think. This may be true for this very
context, but newbies may be lead to thinking this could be somehow
generalized. The text does not lose a way about the implications.

Far fetched where? I don't understand what&#= 39;s wrong.
=C2=A0

First, there are no such things as verbs and nouns in Lojban!
<= div>Please explain what are verbs and nouns in general. And whether those t= erms are logical at all. My belief is that they are not.
And if y= ou start teaching newbies such terms as "sumti", "tanru"= ; and "sumtcita" instead of intuitive "verbs", "co= mpound verbs" and "prepositions" ... you'll get the curr= ent community of geeks. Most people are just frightened of those lojbanic t= erms.

What you
are actually refering to is a completely different word class, a
brivla, in English we could call it =E2=80=9Crelation=E2=80=9D.


=E2=80=9Clo nei=E2=80=9D =3D =E2=80=9Coneself=E2=80=9D
Oh boy. Translating this with =E2=80=9Coneself=E2=80=9D is only correct in = the context
of this example. But it can=E2=80=99t be generalized.

There are some other oversimplifications.

Perhaps it is a good idea to put a warning on the first slide that this
thing is a radical oversimplification of Lojban. Links to other
learning resources (except the wiki) would be useful.

----

Why do you introduce =E2=80=9Cmi'ai=E2=80=9D, an experimental cmavo? I = don=E2=80=99t think it
is a good idea to introduce experimental stuff before even the basics
are tought.

Because otherwise we'd = have to confess "There is no English "we" in Lojban. Yes, Lo= jban is logical and English "we" has a transparent meaning but Lo= jban lacks it for an unknown reason."=C2=A0

----

Normally, I would have edited this document right away without
complaining, just improving stuff.

See the = license? You can copy it and fork it and export it to at least PowerPoint f= ormat and the convert using LibreOffice to what you need.
=C2=A0<= /div>
But since this is on Google Docs and
Google Docs does not export the file to an open AND editable format like OpenDocument, I am not willing to edit it. :-(

--
Wuzzy
XMPP: Wuzzy2@jabber.ccc.de
E-Mail: wuzzy2@mail.ru

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+uns= ubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
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