Received: from mail-fa0-f56.google.com ([209.85.161.56]:47265) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1W9q0c-0004YS-4u for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 01 Feb 2014 21:54:30 -0800 Received: by mail-fa0-f56.google.com with SMTP id m10sf719114fae.21 for ; Sat, 01 Feb 2014 21:54:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=pOSqjuPO8F+PpMgTz4qN0RVSiAUvuVDMj95mfv9hSfQ=; b=vQ1n0eMw2fvL7fLW0U0NULM+XGvGUUy3NShEdM6WHdgT7E6TMnPzcKv5vg0etdacSx PAt6BzzHGVs79IIsucQvOpaR4T7faH/qSBYoJxm3k94YOR8E+/rKtojjnP6Y7X+ayK15 glS4IkpIgG7R14iI0obHi56mQJf21tDqFPewbJUXVuyLLanshigXIhGxFfu5bdKSjjoM FR38//yvK9V/0UFgl+icF9aWUlweG5wCdBnh0/0WERgMTl6qZd4ov1ePq4Ek8zo15GOe fB3GBDGtgWkJJ0wn2GtiFUBPN6D02e/uDjhQeob8mJZobFYpLhUxJQ6Q5qEoN9yDaMjO pgyQ== X-Received: by 10.180.91.107 with SMTP id cd11mr24303wib.13.1391320454570; Sat, 01 Feb 2014 21:54:14 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.74.129 with SMTP id t1ls299005wiv.46.canary; Sat, 01 Feb 2014 21:54:14 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.180.20.177 with SMTP id o17mr3362468wie.7.1391320454027; Sat, 01 Feb 2014 21:54:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-x234.google.com (mail-wg0-x234.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c00::234]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v8si215887wiw.2.2014.02.01.21.54.14 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 01 Feb 2014 21:54:14 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::234 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::234; Received: by mail-wg0-f52.google.com with SMTP id b13so10730952wgh.19 for ; Sat, 01 Feb 2014 21:54:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.202.230 with SMTP id kl6mr20000796wjc.9.1391320453908; Sat, 01 Feb 2014 21:54:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.194.82.135 with HTTP; Sat, 1 Feb 2014 21:54:13 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2591144.W3QC0Ir5tr@caracal> References: <20140131225049.76d93fef@aol.com> <2591144.W3QC0Ir5tr@caracal> Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2014 09:54:13 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Introduction to Lojban. How to quickly create sentences From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::234 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b873a106c8e0f04f1660990 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --047d7b873a106c8e0f04f1660990 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 8:49 AM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Saturday, February 01, 2014 Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > Please explain what are verbs and nouns in general. And whether those > terms > > are logical at all. My belief is that they are not. > > And if you start teaching newbies such terms as "sumti", "tanru" and > > "sumtcita" instead of intuitive "verbs", "compound verbs" and > > "prepositions" ... you'll get the current community of geeks. Most people > > are just frightened of those lojbanic terms. > > Here's an attempt at defining these words: > > A verb is a word that takes arguments (sumti) and belongs to a class of > words > of which all take arguments (there may be some that take zero arguments) > and a > significant portion denote actions. > Yes, a significant portion (probably, Spanish "ser" is the best counterexample). > A noun is a word other than a pronoun which does not take arguments and can > serve, maybe with an article or maybe without, as an argument to a verb. A > significant portion of the class of nouns denote persons, places, or > things. > > "bajra" is definitely a verb. "djan" is definitely a noun. "la .djan. > bajra" is > a sentence consisting of a noun (with the article) and a verb. > > "mlatu" in "le mlatu cu bajra" is not a noun. Even though it is, with its > article, an argument of "bajra", it still can take arguments, as in "le > mlatu > be la .sfinks. cu bajra". > But many English words that we know as "nouns" are not nouns. "A traveller to London is crazy." = {lo litru be la .lyndyn. cu fenki} Isn't "traveller" a noun? > > "bercribe" can arguably be both a verb and a noun. As a verb, it means "is > a > polar bear of some subspecies". As a noun, it means "Ursa Minor" (subject > to > the proviso that cmene in Lojban can be polysemic). > > Suppose you were teaching Tok Pisin, which distinguishes not only "we not > including you" from "we including you" but also "we two not including you" > from "we more than two not including you". Would you make up a word that > means > "we" without such distinctions? If you made up and used such a word, would > the > Tok Pisin speakers understand it? > The point of this course to make others feel Lojban is an easy language close to English (and other similar languages like French, Russian, German). That's why any alien terminology and even constructs are to be removed. First a person needs to grasp Lojban from the viewpoint of their own language. Only after that by learning missing rules and weird (to their native language) styles such lo nintadni will start to understand other Lojbanists. For Japanese speakers there should be a separate introduction probably with topic-comment style. For speakers of TokPisin "mitripela" ("the three of us (excluding you)") needs to be explained etc. > On Saturday, February 01, 2014 09:54:47 Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > On Sat, Feb 1, 2014 at 8:28 AM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > > > #36: There's no infinitive in Lojban, as verbs are not inflected. "lo > ka > > > broda" > > > is an abstraction phrase. It can be translated as an infinitive, but > that > > > doesn't make it one. > > > > If you say "There is no such thing in Lojban" one can conclude Lojban is > a > > underdeveloped language. > > Isn't {broda lo ka [ce'u] brode} = y(x, f(x)) ? I always thought this is > > exactly what an infinitive is. > > Is modern Russian an underdeveloped language because it doesn't have an > aorist > tense? Is Arabic an underdeveloped language because it doesn't have an > infinitive? > > > English "we" means "I and at least one another person". A clear and > useful > > word without any polysemy. Lojban is less logical than English, right ? > > In most languages that have an infinitive, the infinitive does not > conjugate > according to its subject and is used most often without a subject; if it > has a > subject, it's shown in a different way than in finite verbs. The "lo nu > broda" > construct can take a subject in the same way that "broda" can; the > construct > is simply preceding a clause with "lo nu" and following it with elidable > "kei > ku". > -- > ve ka'a ro klaji la .romas. se jmaji > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --047d7b873a106c8e0f04f1660990 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 8:49 AM, Pierre Abbat <= phma@bezitopo.org> wrote:
On Saturday, February 01, 2014 Gleki Arx= okuna wrote:
> Please explain what are verbs and nouns in general. And whether those = terms
> are logical at all. My belief is that they are not.
> And if you start teaching newbies such terms as "sumti", &qu= ot;tanru" and
> "sumtcita" instead of intuitive "verbs", "com= pound verbs" and
> "prepositions" ... you'll get the current community of g= eeks. Most people
> are just frightened of those lojbanic terms.

Here's an attempt at defining these words:

A verb is a word that takes arguments (sumti) and belongs to a class of wor= ds
of which all take arguments (there may be some that take zero arguments) an= d a
significant portion denote actions.

Yes= , a significant portion (probably, Spanish "ser" is the best coun= terexample).


A noun is a word other than a pronoun which does not take arguments and can=
serve, maybe with an article or maybe without, as an argument to a verb. A<= br> significant portion of the class of nouns denote persons, places, or things= .

"bajra" is definitely a verb. "djan" is definitely a no= un. "la .djan. bajra" is
a sentence consisting of a noun (with the article) and a verb.

"mlatu" in "le mlatu cu bajra" is not a noun. Even thou= gh it is, with its
article, an argument of "bajra", it still can take arguments, as = in "le mlatu
be la .sfinks. cu bajra".

But many= English words that we know as "nouns" are not nouns.
<= br>
"A traveller to London is crazy." =3D {lo litru be = la .lyndyn. cu fenki}
Isn't "traveller" a noun?

"bercribe" can arguably be both a verb and a noun. As a verb, it = means "is a
polar bear of some subspecies". As a noun, it means "Ursa Minor&q= uot; (subject to
the proviso that cmene in Lojban can be polysemic).

Suppose you were teaching Tok Pisin, which distinguishes not only "we = not
including you" from "we including you" but also "we two= not including you"
from "we more than two not including you". Would you make up a wo= rd that means
"we" without such distinctions? If you made up and used such a wo= rd, would the
Tok Pisin speakers understand it?

The p= oint of this course to make others feel Lojban is an easy language close to= English (and other similar languages like French, Russian, German). That&#= 39;s why any alien terminology and even constructs are to be removed.

First a person needs to grasp Lojban from the viewpoint of th= eir own language. Only after that by learning missing rules and weird (to t= heir native language) styles such lo nintadni will start to understand othe= r Lojbanists.

For Japanese speakers there should be a separate introduction probably = with topic-comment style.

For speakers of TokPisin= "mitripela" ("the three of us (excluding you)") needs = to be explained etc.



On Saturday, February 01, 2014 09:54:47 Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 1, 2014 at 8:28 AM, Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org> wrote:
> > #36: There's no infinitive in Lojban, as verbs are not inflec= ted. "lo ka
> > broda"
> > is an abstraction phrase. It can be translated as an infinitive, = but that
> > doesn't make it one.
>
> If you say "There is no such thing in Lojban" one can conclu= de Lojban is a
> underdeveloped language.
> Isn't {broda lo ka [ce'u] brode} =3D y(x, f(x)) ? I always tho= ught this is
> exactly what an infinitive is.

Is modern Russian an underdeveloped language because it doesn't h= ave an aorist
tense? Is Arabic an underdeveloped language because it doesn't have an<= br> infinitive?

> English "we" means "I and at least one another person&q= uot;. A clear and useful
> word without any polysemy. Lojban is less logical than English, right = ?

In most languages that have an infinitive, the infinitive does not co= njugate
according to its subject and is used most often without a subject; if it ha= s a
subject, it's shown in a different way than in finite verbs. The "= lo nu broda"
construct can take a subject in the same way that "broda" can; th= e construct
is simply preceding a clause with "lo nu" and following it with e= lidable "kei
ku".
--
ve ka'a ro klaji la .romas. se jmaji

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+uns= ubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
--047d7b873a106c8e0f04f1660990--