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From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dan_Ros=E9n?= <lurifax@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2014 00:36:13 +0100
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Subject: [lojban] Individuals and xorlo
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Dear selmriste,

It seems that using xorlo prevents explicitly talking about indivduals,
such as
/one elephant/, a seemingly simple concept. Let's start with an inner
quantifier:

    lo pa xanto = zo'e noi ke'a xanto gi'e zilkancu li pa lo xanto,

However, the latter {lo xanto} in zilkancu3 can denote about a group of
elephants, so {lo pa xanto} can indeed be many elephants.  Outer quantifiers
will not help, as they will only range over the inner object.

Using zo'e directly is obviously fruitless since xorlo seems to influence
how
both zo'e, and how noi work: together they remove our abilities to
explicitly
talk about individuals. This make me assume that it also affects the
da-family, so {pa xanto} is also out of the question.

Finally, any brivla will not help us here as the dreaded lo-zo'e-noi-trinity
will always be able to sneak in a group where we want an individual. For
instance in {lo pa kantu be lo pa xanto}, or {lo xantyka'u}, we still might
end
up with a onesome of elephants.

Why was it decided to make it like this?  It seems that a monolingual
jbopre
would not /really/ be able to differentiate an elephant from its flock.
(But perhaps not if we were talking about sheep, but I digress)

Hopefully I have misunderstood everything. If this is so, please enlighten
me.

ki'e mi'e la danr

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>Dear selmriste,<br><br>It seems that using xorlo preve=
nts explicitly talking about indivduals, such as<br>/one elephant/, a seemi=
ngly simple concept. Let&#39;s start with an inner quantifier:<br><br>=A0=
=A0=A0 lo pa xanto =3D zo&#39;e noi ke&#39;a xanto gi&#39;e zilkancu li pa =
lo xanto,<br>

<br>However, the latter {lo xanto} in zilkancu3 can denote about a group of=
<br>elephants, so {lo pa xanto} can indeed be many elephants.=A0 Outer quan=
tifiers<br>will not help, as they will only range over the inner object.<br=
>

<br>Using zo&#39;e directly is obviously fruitless since xorlo seems to inf=
luence how<br>both zo&#39;e, and how noi work: together they remove our abi=
lities to explicitly<br>talk about individuals. This make me assume that it=
 also affects the<br>

da-family, so {pa xanto} is also out of the question.<br><br>Finally, any b=
rivla will not help us here as the dreaded lo-zo&#39;e-noi-trinity<br>will =
always be able to sneak in a group where we want an individual. For<br>

instance in {lo pa kantu be lo pa xanto}, or {lo xantyka&#39;u}, we still m=
ight end<br>up with a onesome of elephants.<br><br>Why was it decided to ma=
ke it like this?=A0 It seems that a monolingual jbopre <br>would not /reall=
y/ be able to differentiate an elephant from its flock.<br>

(But perhaps not if we were talking about sheep, but I digress)<br><br>Hope=
fully I have misunderstood everything. If this is so, please enlighten me.<=
br><br>ki&#39;e mi&#39;e la danr<br></div>

<p></p>

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