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Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2014 22:14:48 -0200
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Individuals and xorlo
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Felipe_Gon=E7alves_Assis?= <felipeg.assis@gmail.com>
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Here is a way if recovering the concept of an individual elephant just from
the concepts of elephants and parthood:
A xanto pamei is something that is xanto and that can't be divided in two
things such that each one is xanto.

I would express a counting unit with a property:
{lo pa xanto cu zilkancu li pa lo ka xanto}

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.


On 3 February 2014 21:36, Dan Ros=E9n <lurifax@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Dear selmriste,
>
> It seems that using xorlo prevents explicitly talking about indivduals,
> such as
> /one elephant/, a seemingly simple concept. Let's start with an inner
> quantifier:
>
>     lo pa xanto =3D zo'e noi ke'a xanto gi'e zilkancu li pa lo xanto,
>
> However, the latter {lo xanto} in zilkancu3 can denote about a group of
> elephants, so {lo pa xanto} can indeed be many elephants.  Outer
> quantifiers
> will not help, as they will only range over the inner object.
>
> Using zo'e directly is obviously fruitless since xorlo seems to influence
> how
> both zo'e, and how noi work: together they remove our abilities to
> explicitly
> talk about individuals. This make me assume that it also affects the
> da-family, so {pa xanto} is also out of the question.
>
> Finally, any brivla will not help us here as the dreaded
> lo-zo'e-noi-trinity
> will always be able to sneak in a group where we want an individual. For
> instance in {lo pa kantu be lo pa xanto}, or {lo xantyka'u}, we still
> might end
> up with a onesome of elephants.
>
> Why was it decided to make it like this?  It seems that a monolingual
> jbopre
> would not /really/ be able to differentiate an elephant from its flock.
> (But perhaps not if we were talking about sheep, but I digress)
>
> Hopefully I have misunderstood everything. If this is so, please enlighte=
n
> me.
>
> ki'e mi'e la danr
>
> --
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Here is a way if recovering the concept of an individ=
ual elephant just from the concepts of elephants and parthood:<br>A xanto p=
amei is something that is xanto and that can&#39;t be divided in two things=
 such that each one is xanto.<br>
</div><br><div>I would express a counting unit with a property:<br>{lo pa x=
anto cu zilkancu li pa lo ka xanto}<br></div><div><br></div><div>mu&#39;o<b=
r>mi&#39;e .asiz.<br></div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 3 February 2014 21:36, Dan Ros=E9n <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lurifax@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
lurifax@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>Dear selmriste,<br><br>It seems that using xorlo preve=
nts explicitly talking about indivduals, such as<br>/one elephant/, a seemi=
ngly simple concept. Let&#39;s start with an inner quantifier:<br><br>=A0=
=A0=A0 lo pa xanto =3D zo&#39;e noi ke&#39;a xanto gi&#39;e zilkancu li pa =
lo xanto,<br>


<br>However, the latter {lo xanto} in zilkancu3 can denote about a group of=
<br>elephants, so {lo pa xanto} can indeed be many elephants.=A0 Outer quan=
tifiers<br>will not help, as they will only range over the inner object.<br=
>


<br>Using zo&#39;e directly is obviously fruitless since xorlo seems to inf=
luence how<br>both zo&#39;e, and how noi work: together they remove our abi=
lities to explicitly<br>talk about individuals. This make me assume that it=
 also affects the<br>


da-family, so {pa xanto} is also out of the question.<br><br>Finally, any b=
rivla will not help us here as the dreaded lo-zo&#39;e-noi-trinity<br>will =
always be able to sneak in a group where we want an individual. For<br>


instance in {lo pa kantu be lo pa xanto}, or {lo xantyka&#39;u}, we still m=
ight end<br>up with a onesome of elephants.<br><br>Why was it decided to ma=
ke it like this?=A0 It seems that a monolingual jbopre <br>would not /reall=
y/ be able to differentiate an elephant from its flock.<br>


(But perhaps not if we were talking about sheep, but I digress)<br><br>Hope=
fully I have misunderstood everything. If this is so, please enlighten me.<=
br><br>ki&#39;e mi&#39;e la danr<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#8888=
88"><br>
</font></span></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">

<p></p>

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</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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