Received: from mail-la0-f64.google.com ([209.85.215.64]:34497) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WAxIb-0003vD-TM for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 04 Feb 2014 23:53:44 -0800 Received: by mail-la0-f64.google.com with SMTP id pv20sf1938lab.19 for ; Tue, 04 Feb 2014 23:53:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=K/to+D0aw9Gux88uj49K5JkfC92ncitkTCQP2DPeo0A=; b=HS8u5ltDstn5TkkPiWUmBIAlq3Wcpycnwnp8rwXRi81QJywWHWUahd+pe9J4zMnFWj FJImj7yuniar7tQnyAdw8owi7pvXqxoNnp/SFoFuPDpnja5NcqgHfPNHqUgA/3v/3Asd HOfDQM47yaF0y8LfmkGhu9ToHLqi58dCpSjVc4yvAwJ+kUxAoKvIHJHWWYLN/4D4AOrG HnKa5vEOeO3NDiwS8ebh9PDUxaavsmOqyZXEtyROCfI0wGYd+dOj6wVrp49AGQmnCmri EZOOdFCyHFdyenFNsQMQ1FDJlhOJ9c1MsBI4PZhXqsq9K5djf1MbuTJOP1GHfNS4KFia /GQw== X-Received: by 10.152.206.104 with SMTP id ln8mr456lac.40.1391586806020; Tue, 04 Feb 2014 23:53:26 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.30.98 with SMTP id r2ls14187lah.85.gmail; Tue, 04 Feb 2014 23:53:25 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.152.201.198 with SMTP id kc6mr71353lac.2.1391586805486; Tue, 04 Feb 2014 23:53:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wi0-x232.google.com (mail-wi0-x232.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c05::232]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id jb4si744095wic.0.2014.02.04.23.53.25 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 04 Feb 2014 23:53:25 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::232 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::232; Received: by mail-wi0-f178.google.com with SMTP id cc10so260055wib.5 for ; Tue, 04 Feb 2014 23:53:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.23.201 with SMTP id o9mr341839wjf.67.1391586805357; Tue, 04 Feb 2014 23:53:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.194.82.135 with HTTP; Tue, 4 Feb 2014 23:53:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2014 11:53:25 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Individuals and xorlo From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::232 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b3a956c3521a404f1a40d1b X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --047d7b3a956c3521a404f1a40d1b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry for intruding. I need to explain this in simple words for a future lojban tutorial. So {zo'e} denotes an individual/individuals. {lo najgenja} =3D carrot/carrots {ci lo najgenja cu grake li 60} =3D {ci zo'e noi najgenja cu grake li 60} - describes carrots. Three of carrots are 60 grams each. Now I *postulate* an axiom that {[su'o] lo pa najgenja} describes one carrot (I'll avoid formulae here since i need it for a tutorial, not for a reference grammar). {ro lo ci najgenja} describes each of the three carrots. Two important conclusions: 1. {ro lo ci najgenja cu grake li 60} - one carrot is always *60 grams *in weight. 2. {ro loi ci najgenja cu grake li 60} =3D {ro zo'e noi gunma lo ci najgenj= a cu grake li 60} - describes masses (again of carrots but carrots here are of less importance since carrots are hidden inside gunma2). Each mass of carrots (with three carrots in each mass) is 60 grams so each carrots weighs *20 grams *on average. Is my reasoning correct? I remember someone saying that {lo} is more vague and might include masses as well but here {loi} and it's underlying {gunma} move carrots higher. Can we accept raising here? If yes then all this reasoning immediately breaks. On Tue, Feb 4, 2014 at 3:36 AM, Dan Ros=C3=A9n wrote: > > Dear selmriste, > > It seems that using xorlo prevents explicitly talking about indivduals, > such as > /one elephant/, a seemingly simple concept. Let's start with an inner > quantifier: > > lo pa xanto =3D zo'e noi ke'a xanto gi'e zilkancu li pa lo xanto, > > However, the latter {lo xanto} in zilkancu3 can denote about a group of > elephants, so {lo pa xanto} can indeed be many elephants. Outer > quantifiers > will not help, as they will only range over the inner object. > > Using zo'e directly is obviously fruitless since xorlo seems to influence > how > both zo'e, and how noi work: together they remove our abilities to > explicitly > talk about individuals. This make me assume that it also affects the > da-family, so {pa xanto} is also out of the question. > > Finally, any brivla will not help us here as the dreaded > lo-zo'e-noi-trinity > will always be able to sneak in a group where we want an individual. For > instance in {lo pa kantu be lo pa xanto}, or {lo xantyka'u}, we still > might end > up with a onesome of elephants. > > Why was it decided to make it like this? It seems that a monolingual > jbopre > would not /really/ be able to differentiate an elephant from its flock. > (But perhaps not if we were talking about sheep, but I digress) > > Hopefully I have misunderstood everything. If this is so, please enlighte= n > me. > > ki'e mi'e la danr > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --047d7b3a956c3521a404f1a40d1b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry for intruding. I need to explain this in simple word= s for a future lojban tutorial.
So=C2=A0
{zo'e} denotes a= n individual/individuals.
{lo najgenja} =3D carrot/carrots
<= div>{ci lo najgenja cu grake li 60} =3D {ci zo'e noi najgenja cu grake = li 60} - describes carrots. Three of carrots are 60 grams each.

Now I=C2=A0postulate=C2=A0an axiom=C2=A0tha= t {[su'o] lo pa najgenja} describes one carrot (I'll avoid formulae= here since i need it for a tutorial, not for a reference grammar).
{ro lo ci najgenja} describes each of the three carrots.

Two important conclusions:
1. {ro lo ci najgenja c= u grake li 60} - one carrot is always 60 grams in weight.
= 2. {ro loi ci najgenja cu grake li 60} =3D {ro zo'e noi gunma lo ci naj= genja cu grake li 60} - describes masses (again of carrots but carrots here= are of less importance since carrots are hidden inside gunma2). Each mass = of carrots (with three carrots in each mass) is 60 grams so each carrots we= ighs 20 grams on average.

Is my reasoning correct?
I remember someone saying that = {lo} is more vague and might include masses as well but here {loi} and it&#= 39;s underlying {gunma} move carrots higher. Can we accept raising here? If= yes then all this reasoning immediately breaks.




On Tue, Feb 4, 2014 at 3:36 AM, Dan Ros=C3=A9n <lur= ifax@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear selmriste,

= It seems that using xorlo prevents explicitly talking about indivduals, suc= h as
/one elephant/, a seemingly simple concept. Let's start with an inner q= uantifier:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 lo pa xanto =3D zo'e noi ke'a = xanto gi'e zilkancu li pa lo xanto,

However, the latter {lo xanto} in zilkancu3 can denote about a group of=
elephants, so {lo pa xanto} can indeed be many elephants.=C2=A0 Outer q= uantifiers
will not help, as they will only range over the inner object.=

Using zo'e directly is obviously fruitless since xorlo seems to inf= luence how
both zo'e, and how noi work: together they remove our abi= lities to explicitly
talk about individuals. This make me assume that it= also affects the
da-family, so {pa xanto} is also out of the question.

Finally, any b= rivla will not help us here as the dreaded lo-zo'e-noi-trinity
will = always be able to sneak in a group where we want an individual. For
instance in {lo pa kantu be lo pa xanto}, or {lo xantyka'u}, we still m= ight end
up with a onesome of elephants.

Why was it decided to ma= ke it like this?=C2=A0 It seems that a monolingual jbopre
would not /re= ally/ be able to differentiate an elephant from its flock.
(But perhaps not if we were talking about sheep, but I digress)

Hope= fully I have misunderstood everything. If this is so, please enlighten me.<= br>
ki'e mi'e la danr

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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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