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Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2014 10:19:31 -0800 (PST)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Individuals and xorlo
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It seems that the constantly evolving xorlo (now moving far from 'lo' -- an=
d probably from xorxes as well) has gotten itself into yet another jam, pre=
sumably from trying to do too much again. =A0I suspect that what is needed =
is to go back to basics and get that clear once more and then move ahead ca=
utiously. =A0So, the basic 'lo broda' is "the salient node of the upward se=
milattice of jest on the set assigned to 'broda'" (some set of brodas and b=
roda parts -- whatever that may mean for a particular kind of thing as brod=
a). =A0'lo', unlike 'loi' says nothing about how the set involved is connec=
ted to the predicates involved (collective or distributive). =A0Variables r=
ange over L-sets or are plural, depending on your mathematical theology. =
=A0Etc. =A0do we need to fill in all the details and, if not, which ones?

________________________________
 From: selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 5, 2014 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Individuals and xorlo
=20

la .dan. cu cusku di'e
> Using zo'e directly is obviously fruitless since xorlo seems to
> influence how both zo'e, and how noi work: together they remove our abili=
ties to
> explicitly talk about individuals.

I don't think {noi} changed at all. {zo'e} allows plural reference, but tha=
t isn't new either.

> This make me assume that it also affects the
> da-family, so {pa xanto} is also out of the question.

This comes down to whether or not {da} allows for plural variables. Since p=
lural reference is so common in Lojban, it would make sense for {da} to als=
o allow plural variables, but singular variables also have advantages.

Imagine {za'a lo ci xanto cu va cadzu} to set the context. Now, it all depe=
nds on on {da}'s plurality what {da va cadzu} can mean. Clearly, we just sa=
w that {lo ci xanto} is a cadzu1, so it should be a possible value for the =
{da}. The downside to this is that with plural variables, the one X in {pa =
lo ci xanto} could be all three elephants (although a distributive handling=
 of {me}'s x1 could fix that, or in other words, by saying that {mi'o na me=
 mi'o}), whereas singular variables could only pick out an individual eleph=
ant from {lo ci xanto}.

So singular variables are simpler and avoid certain problems, like the {pa =
xanto} one. On the other hand, it would mean that we can't say {da simxu lo=
 ka prami} for "There are some X who love each other", and we'd have to use=
 more complicated mechanisms for that, like {da poi su'o mei cu simxu lo ka=
 prami} (which isn't *that* bad).

Personally I would be all but opposed to the idea of having plural variable=
s to along with the plural reference while keeping the simplicity of singul=
ar quantification, but I probably can't have my cake and eat it, too. I wou=
ld not want two sets of quantifers, for eaxmple. Another idea would be to h=
ave each selbri place decide if it's distributive or not, but I'm not sure =
I like that very much. So the more practical solution right now seems to be=
 to stick with singular variables, even though it breaks the {simxu} exampl=
e above and can sometimes be counter-intuitive in a language full of plural=
 reference.

mi'e la selpa'i mu'o

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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>It seems t=
hat the constantly evolving xorlo (now moving far from 'lo' -- and probably=
 from xorxes as well) has gotten itself into yet another jam, presumably fr=
om trying to do too much again. &nbsp;I suspect that what is needed is to g=
o back to basics and get that clear once more and then move ahead cautiousl=
y. &nbsp;So, the basic 'lo broda' is "the salient node of the upward semila=
ttice of jest on the set assigned to 'broda'" (some set of brodas and broda=
 parts -- whatever that may mean for a particular kind of thing as broda). =
&nbsp;'lo', unlike 'loi' says nothing about how the set involved is connect=
ed to the predicates involved (collective or distributive). &nbsp;Variables=
 range over L-sets or are plural, depending on your mathematical theology. =
&nbsp;Etc. &nbsp;do we need to fill in all the details and, if not,
 which ones?</span></div>  <div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'tim=
es new roman', 'new york', times, serif; "> <div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; "> <div dir=3D"lt=
r"> <hr size=3D"1">  <font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"> <b><span style=3D"fon=
t-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> selpa'i &lt;seladwa@gmx.de&gt;<br> <b><spa=
n style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> lojban@googlegroups.com <br> =
<b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, February =
5, 2014 10:49 AM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span><=
/b> Re: [lojban] Individuals and xorlo<br> </font> </div> <div class=3D"y_m=
sg_container"><br>
la .dan. cu cusku di'e<br>&gt; Using zo'e directly is obviously fruitless s=
ince xorlo seems to<br>&gt; influence how both zo'e, and how noi work: toge=
ther they remove our abilities to<br>&gt; explicitly talk about individuals=
.<br><br>I don't think {noi} changed at all. {zo'e} allows plural reference=
, but that isn't new either.<br><br>&gt; This make me assume that it also a=
ffects the<br>&gt; da-family, so {pa xanto} is also out of the question.<br=
><br>This comes down to whether or not {da} allows for plural variables. Si=
nce plural reference is so common in Lojban, it would make sense for {da} t=
o also allow plural variables, but singular variables also have advantages.=
<br><br>Imagine {za'a lo ci xanto cu va cadzu} to set the context. Now, it =
all depends on on {da}'s plurality what {da va cadzu} can mean. Clearly, we=
 just saw that {lo ci xanto} is a cadzu1, so it should be a possible value =
for the {da}. The downside to this is that with plural variables,
 the one X in {pa lo ci xanto} could be all three elephants (although a dis=
tributive handling of {me}'s x1 could fix that, or in other words, by sayin=
g that {mi'o na me mi'o}), whereas singular variables could only pick out a=
n individual elephant from {lo ci xanto}.<br><br>So singular variables are =
simpler and avoid certain problems, like the {pa xanto} one. On the other h=
and, it would mean that we can't say {da simxu lo ka prami} for "There are =
some X who love each other", and we'd have to use more complicated mechanis=
ms for that, like {da poi su'o mei cu simxu lo ka prami} (which isn't *that=
* bad).<br><br>Personally I would be all but opposed to the idea of having =
plural variables to along with the plural reference while keeping the simpl=
icity of singular quantification, but I probably can't have my cake and eat=
 it, too. I would not want two sets of quantifers, for eaxmple. Another ide=
a would be to have each selbri place decide if it's distributive or
 not, but I'm not sure I like that very much. So the more practical solutio=
n right now seems to be to stick with singular variables, even though it br=
eaks the {simxu} example above and can sometimes be counter-intuitive in a =
language full of plural reference.<br><br>mi'e la selpa'i mu'o<br><br>-- Yo=
u received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lo=
jban" group.<br>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails fr=
om it, send an email to lojban+<a ymailto=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroup=
s.com" href=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">unsubscribe@googlegroup=
s.com</a>.<br>To post to this group, send email to <a ymailto=3D"mailto:loj=
ban@googlegroups.com" href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com">lojban@google=
groups.com</a>.<br>Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba=
n.<br>For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/o=
pt_out"
 target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br><br><br=
></div> </div> </div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

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