Received: from mail-wi0-f189.google.com ([209.85.212.189]:45075) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WBB6i-0002B4-6T for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 05 Feb 2014 14:38:19 -0800 Received: by mail-wi0-f189.google.com with SMTP id f8sf89494wiw.6 for ; Wed, 05 Feb 2014 14:38:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=kpiqKY/4Se7psIjZesYs23OyqhSs1PoSfPOm/54cArY=; b=ghTJ55suMNiEcloVRxgOUFl0CVOeGJh2dnEbqBq7KlHjKzBUcuMQFaiimBNJtKg0QE OPSwPVjd0+qcI+FSckrlxXdJMoXgu+9/eHAhh5VGph2qcgtbvWTEcQXo0dtT6p0k3Yub oDrzQhI5t7aKxP3KKQ5HBx+1hnC3geyuJ5Dm+9yQIfXcRRFaKZeIasnnEYalayKJhIb3 ehd7Db2VTTfPmwZHXXCmvXmla677UzPSbEEqvrUCr2vgBXJrcotNQJusLw29s+XLuqWC cptAa5dQzayiDA4x1cDbGyq2MthDUaytkWugElm0LT4uJX6TfgEHkjtM/YcXZ+fwiGSv zkkw== X-Received: by 10.180.108.80 with SMTP id hi16mr97476wib.3.1391639884792; Wed, 05 Feb 2014 14:38:04 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.82.199 with SMTP id k7ls830438wiy.52.canary; Wed, 05 Feb 2014 14:38:04 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.180.80.233 with SMTP id u9mr13401878wix.0.1391639884227; Wed, 05 Feb 2014 14:38:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-la0-x22f.google.com (mail-la0-x22f.google.com [2a00:1450:4010:c03::22f]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id w8si3011712bkn.0.2014.02.05.14.38.04 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 05 Feb 2014 14:38:04 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of felipeg.assis@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::22f as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c03::22f; Received: by mail-la0-f47.google.com with SMTP id hr17so854347lab.6 for ; Wed, 05 Feb 2014 14:38:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.121.105 with SMTP id lj9mr2679241lab.37.1391639883811; Wed, 05 Feb 2014 14:38:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.112.61.138 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Feb 2014 14:38:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <21747497.XJu0uFAB9n@caracal> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2014 20:38:03 -0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] [oz] Quick question: {ju'o ru'a} From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Felipe_Gon=E7alves_Assis?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: felipeg.assis@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of felipeg.assis@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::22f as permitted sender) smtp.mail=felipeg.assis@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e01227716ee119c04f1b06864 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --089e01227716ee119c04f1b06864 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Now that I think of it, abduction is precisely about making hypotheses... I think I felt uneasy because I first tried to combine the meanings of {ju'o} and {ru'a} in a non-orthogonal way... mu'o mi'e .asiz. On 4 February 2014 22:08, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > > > > On Tue, Feb 4, 2014 at 6:56 PM, Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis < > felipeg.assis@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hmm, the analysis of this as certainty+assumption hasn't sunk in yet, bu= t >> I think I see the unity behind the examples. >> >> In all of them, the cusku is abducting something from his experience, >> don't you think? >> >> If this is the case, it reminds me of {ja'o}, because it is an inference= , >> after all. Admittedly, {ja'o} would sound strange to me, because I feel >> like the cusku is concluding something from what was said before. Maybe = a >> {za'a} could help? >> > > My take is that when she says `I must be shutting up like a telescope.' s= he > is making a hypothesis as opposed to stating it as a fact (hence "ru'a") > and also expressing a high degree of certainty that the hypothesis is > correct ("ju'o"). It may well be that her certainty comes from experience > or direct observation, and we may infer that from the situation, but I > don't think she is actually expressing that. This "ru'a ju'o" would work > just as well for other such uses of "must" that don't involve direct > experience, as in "that must be your brother" or "she must be home by now= ". > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --089e01227716ee119c04f1b06864 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Now that I think of it, abduction is precisely about = making hypotheses...

I think I felt uneasy because I first tried to = combine the meanings of {ju'o} and {ru'a} in a non-orthogonal way..= .

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.
<= br>
On 4 February 2014 22:08, Jorge Llamb=EDa= s <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:



On Tue, Feb 4, 201= 4 at 6:56 PM, Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis <felipeg.assis@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
Hmm, the analysis= of this as certainty+assumption hasn't sunk in yet, but I think I see = the unity behind the examples.

In all of them, the cusku is abducting something from his experie= nce, don't you think?

If this is the case, it reminds me of {ja'o}, because it is an infe= rence, after all. Admittedly, {ja'o} would sound strange to me, because= I feel like the cusku is concluding something from what was said before. M= aybe a {za'a} could help?
=A0
My take= is that when she says=A0`I must be=A0shutting up like a telescope= .' she is making a hypothesis as opposed to stating it = as a fact (hence "ru'a") and also expressing a high degree of= certainty that the hypothesis is correct ("ju'o"). It may we= ll be that her certainty comes from experience or direct observation, and w= e may infer that from the situation, but I don't think she is actually = expressing that. This "ru'a ju'o" would work just as well= for other such uses of "must" that don't involve direct expe= rience, as in "that must be your brother" or "she must be ho= me by now".

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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