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Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2014 12:33:19 +0100
From: selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Individuals and xorlo
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la .guskant. cu cusku di'e
>     Once you have a mass, then that mass is a new individual altogether.
>     But
>     a sumti like {mi'o} or {mi jo'u do} is not a mass, it's just two
>     individuals together.
>
> I use the term "mass" as something in a domain of plural variable,
> saying nothing about collectivity/distributivity.
> I know BPFK and you use the term "mass" only for "collective mass", but
> I think this usage is confusing for beginners, because:
>
> 1. CLL uses the term "mass" more generally, not always for collective mass;
> 2. the English word "mass" is too vague to be used as a technical term
> that involving collectivity;
> 3. it is useful to define "mass" as follows:
> "mass" =ca'e "something in a domain of plural variable";
> "collective mass" =ca'e "mass that satisfies the predicate collectively";
> "distributive mass" =ca'e "mass that satisfies the predicate
> distributively".

The term "mass" is confusing exactly because it has been used to mean so 
many different things. I would avoid the term myself. However, whenever 
I say mass, I mean {gunma}.

{lo gunma} is an individual, too. The referent of {lo gunma} is the 
"mass", not its members, which is the whole point of {gunma}. I also 
think that {gunma}'s semantics aren't very clear. We still don't have a 
definite answer on what properties a {gunma} has, how those properties 
are related to its members, and whether it can attain new properties, 
and which ones. For me, a {gunma} is a whole new entity, and it can be 
the value of a singular variable. There is also no question of 
distributivity with {gunma}, as it is just one thing (unless you have 
multiple {gunma}, in which case {lo PA gunma} is the same as any other 
{lo PA broda}, not specifying distributivity).

> If you suggest another short term for "something in a domain of plural
> variable, saying nothing about collectivity/distributivity", I would
> abandon my usage of "mass" in this meaning.

A term that I've been using, but which doesn't seem to be very 
wide-spread (yet?), is "individual-collection". Anything that can be 
expressed as {X jo'u Y jo'u Z ...} is an individual collection and is 
identical to a {lo broda} with those {jo'u}-connected referents.

> Yes, but whether {lo ckafi}, {lo prenu} etc. are individual or not
> depends on epistemology, and the epistemology depends on the universe of
> discourse, on the context.
> It is not defined by Lojban.

The way I see it, any {lo broda} is an individual (or an 
individual-collection). It doesn't matter what {broda} is. What kind of 
individuals there are in {lo broda} depends on {broda}, but they are 
still always individuals. There is no difference between {lo ckafi} and 
{lo prenu} in terms of individualness.

mi'e la selpa'i mu'o

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