Received: from mail-wg0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]:34948) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WBtu2-0007WO-K7 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 07 Feb 2014 14:28:18 -0800 Received: by mail-wg0-f61.google.com with SMTP id y10sf260870wgg.6 for ; Fri, 07 Feb 2014 14:27:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=f5wyEPyyoH3FdFJYtpTv6vnm8U07s2Y1lvdkW837nKA=; b=SL/om6v9N1uV7+Fvh4wJZtmjRuNZ51pHy4fOsxmWjwngdHUHmmu7LzIELD1QrZYhuN imcLXcpyFmFusJGYTvXA8yXT3bvJIjw3MCJVRfX870V3bK0bTI/Ak1lHFs6jAcW1fncz 8jP/jkmwjzGOGq5AN+XOSR3aTOU3mVgOYCs6kkRmpFkEPLwADGF0XimHBKduyt1f9shw n0/TXI5QRfndmq4pS3+/vvMFwFHGhLGYJryzalaWrhbYsDgv2tIwS3vCA/HLUTLBTrki CVFfvaZzciuD3p1XUYax5/rLFtc8E7ftJHDNYc7X3I802muzLqTD/T8XmoONfsJkjIrP T2+g== X-Received: by 10.180.36.164 with SMTP id r4mr14907wij.16.1391812078531; Fri, 07 Feb 2014 14:27:58 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.91.193 with SMTP id cg1ls240049wib.7.gmail; Fri, 07 Feb 2014 14:27:57 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.180.89.5 with SMTP id bk5mr1259142wib.0.1391812077808; Fri, 07 Feb 2014 14:27:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lb0-x22f.google.com (mail-lb0-x22f.google.com [2a00:1450:4010:c04::22f]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id rk7si851454bkb.2.2014.02.07.14.27.57 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 07 Feb 2014 14:27:57 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of felipeg.assis@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c04::22f as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c04::22f; Received: by mail-lb0-f175.google.com with SMTP id p9so3119269lbv.20 for ; Fri, 07 Feb 2014 14:27:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.27.100 with SMTP id s4mr11887935lag.18.1391812077273; Fri, 07 Feb 2014 14:27:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.112.61.136 with HTTP; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 14:27:57 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 20:27:57 -0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] [oz] {ny poi cy ke'a falcru} From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Felipe_Gon=E7alves_Assis?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: felipeg.assis@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of felipeg.assis@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c04::22f as permitted sender) smtp.mail=felipeg.assis@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0160b88e75c76904f1d8808b X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --089e0160b88e75c76904f1d8808b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7 February 2014 13:53, Michael Turniansky wrote: > I don't think I understand your question. Why wouldn't ny refer to "lo > narge"? That is the antecedent (from "lo narge cu tai cmalu"). Or, are > you perhaps meaning to refer to the SECOND use of "ny", and asserting it > should now be reassigned to meaning "ny poi cy ke'a falcru"? > > I didn't even think about the second one, my issue is more fundamental. I agree that {ny} refers to lo narge, but it ought to be the exact same lo narge, and not a proper part of it. I guess you think so. The issue then is whether a relative clause can change that. Consider {lo spesi'u poi crino}. My interpretation is that it refers to people that form a couple (or couples), and additionaly we have the information that these people are green, which presumably is important to understand which couple we're talking about. It has the same possible referents as {lo crino poi spesi'u} and {zo'e poi spesi'u gi'e crino}. The relative clause can only limit the possible referents of the description, not expand it. To talk about a green part of some spesi'u, we could say {lo me lo spesi'u me'u poi crino}, or more simply {lo crino pagbu be lo spesi'u}, or, in particular, {lo speni poi crino}. But, using the convention from the text, we would read it another way. {lo spesi'u} would still, of course, refer to a couple, but then the relative clause would act on the reference of {lo spesi'u} to extract a part of it that is green, even if it does not form a couple any more. The relative clause can, then, create new possibilities of reference. It is still restrictive in the sense that it takes a reference and then restricts it to a part of it. Only now could I come up with this last interpretation. It surely wasn't intuitive to me. I will reflect on its consequences. But for now, what do you think? mu'o nai mi'e .asiz. > --gejyspa > > > > On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 10:14 AM, Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis < > felipeg.assis@gmail.com> wrote: > >> The full passage is: >> {lo n=E0rge cu tai cm=E0lu .i ja'e bo ny poi cy ke'a f=E0lcru cu ja'a = ru'e se >> zm=E0mei ny poi cy ke'a p=F9nji lo l=E0nka} >> >> Here, {ny poi cy ke'a falcru}, clearly means something equivalent to >> either {lo narge poi cy ke'a falcru} or to what I would write as {lo me = ny >> poi cy ke'a falcru}. To me, an anaphoric expression always has exactly t= he >> same referent as the antecedent. What do you think? >> >> doi la selpa'i, what is your idea behind this usage? Do you think the >> anaphora just occurs at the superficial textual level, so that {ny} woul= d >> be equivalent to {lo narge}? Or do you think that {ko'a poi broda} is >> meaningful in general, so that {ko'a} can in effect refer to a strict pa= rt >> of ko'a, i.e, as in {lo me ko'a}? >> >> mu'o >> mi'e .asiz. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --089e0160b88e75c76904f1d8808b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On 7 February 2014 13:53, Michael Turniansky <= mturniansky@gmai= l.com> wrote:
=A0 I don't think I und= erstand your question. =A0Why wouldn't ny refer to "lo narge"= ? =A0That is the antecedent (from "lo narge cu tai cmalu"). =A0Or= , are you perhaps meaning to refer to the SECOND use of "ny", and= asserting it should now be reassigned to meaning "ny poi cy ke'a = falcru"?=A0


I didn't even think about the sec= ond one, my issue is more fundamental.

I agree that {ny} refers to l= o narge, but it ought to be the exact same lo narge, and not a proper part = of it. I guess you think so. The issue then is whether a relative clause ca= n change that.

Consider {lo spesi'u poi crino}. My interpretation is that it refer= s to people that form a couple (or couples), and additionaly we have the in= formation that these people are green, which presumably is important to und= erstand which couple we're talking about. It has the same possible refe= rents as {lo crino poi spesi'u} and {zo'e poi spesi'u gi'e = crino}. The relative clause can only limit the possible referents of the de= scription, not expand it.

To talk about a green part of some spesi'u, we could say= {lo me lo spesi'u me'u poi crino}, or more simply {lo crino pagbu = be lo spesi'u}, or, in particular, {lo speni poi crino}.

But, us= ing the convention from the text, we would read it another way. {lo spesi&#= 39;u} would still, of course, refer to a couple, but then the relative clau= se would act on the reference of {lo spesi'u} to extract a part of it t= hat is green, even if it does not form a couple any more. The relative clau= se can, then, create new possibilities of reference. It is still restrictiv= e in the sense that it takes a reference and then restricts it to a part of= it.

Only now could I come up with this last interpretation. It s= urely wasn't intuitive to me. I will reflect on its consequences. But f= or now, what do you think?

mu'o nai
mi'e .asiz.



=A0
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa



On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 1= 0:14 AM, Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis <felipeg.assis@gmail.com> wrote:
The full passage is:
=A0 {lo n=E0rge cu tai cm= =E0lu .i ja'e bo ny poi cy ke'a f=E0lcru cu ja'a ru'e se zm= =E0mei ny poi cy ke'a p=F9nji lo l=E0nka}

Here, {ny poi cy ke'a falcru}, clearly means=20 something equivalent to either {lo narge poi cy ke'a falcru} or to what= I would write as {lo me ny poi cy ke'a falcru}. To me, an anaphoric expr= ession always has exactly the same referent as the antecedent. What do you = think?

doi la selpa'i, what is your idea behind this usage= ? Do you think the anaphora just occurs at the superficial textual level, s= o that {ny} would be equivalent to {lo narge}? Or do you think that {ko'= ;a poi broda} is meaningful in general, so that {ko'a} can in effect re= fer to a strict part of ko'a, i.e, as in {lo me ko'a}?

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.

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