Received: from mail-pb0-f61.google.com ([209.85.160.61]:62543) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WBx4Z-0008KK-6n for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 07 Feb 2014 17:51:17 -0800 Received: by mail-pb0-f61.google.com with SMTP id rr13sf1017107pbb.6 for ; Fri, 07 Feb 2014 17:51:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=4X/7+6GDV1Z0S/MLcUW9U7Mn57t0QEnjXFTM5LTe2g8=; b=FzYXRs+1tgYLmjsSyNzOfxLKNMMrbc4Mube3l1DbcgHxLYFyZ4QcG8h6Mti3usGIDR Mt2N+sSYjZZn43jWpb0TKnXH4Q1NDTYZAu3PY2yQLwLYweRkRHaR62KCQIGKlsmXp/tH 4m3AliqNFYFvq3H5yGeJwzd8dpnkrc0goO1fUFF9Lx2Tkx8re/i0/bGqNYreGs3ajsB1 Rh3Nf364leCD0c1B/KuYHGdQY1dpZFln+VNXQWM1W60FcDy4oSDMDVbRuct0Vn4B2WFi SsGg8ddfRO2yAHFT/l8IT57x2hqtWIVTd9P6NqQBef3UvPIo2iqhwreVfVaO+PbFoO0P 0dTQ== X-Received: by 10.50.43.194 with SMTP id y2mr64802igl.6.1391824264951; Fri, 07 Feb 2014 17:51:04 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.238.129 with SMTP id vk1ls924079igc.42.gmail; Fri, 07 Feb 2014 17:51:04 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.66.240.4 with SMTP id vw4mr4658285pac.10.1391824264651; Fri, 07 Feb 2014 17:51:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ve0-x22d.google.com (mail-ve0-x22d.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22d]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ys4si1599973vdc.2.2014.02.07.17.51.04 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 07 Feb 2014 17:51:04 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22d as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22d; Received: by mail-ve0-f173.google.com with SMTP id oz11so3380397veb.18 for ; Fri, 07 Feb 2014 17:51:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.52.251.232 with SMTP id zn8mr22494vdc.41.1391824264507; Fri, 07 Feb 2014 17:51:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.8.195 with HTTP; Fri, 7 Feb 2014 17:51:04 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 23:51:04 -0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] [oz] {ny poi cy ke'a falcru} From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22d as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11340450e0364104f1db560f X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --001a11340450e0364104f1db560f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Feb 7, 2014 at 10:32 PM, Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis < felipeg.assis@gmail.com> wrote: > > On 7 February 2014 22:40, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > >> >> >> That's how "poi" works with quantifiers after all. "ci ko'a poi broda" >> quantifies over the referents of ko'a restricted to those that satisfy >> broda. >> >> > I know about the rule for quantifiers, but it still can be seen as the > relative clause adding a statement about the bound variable. It doesn't > change the fact that removing the relative clause preserves the truth of = a > sentence. The parse doesn't help here, by the way. > (ko'a is not a bound variable though) Removing the relative clause does, in general, change the truth of the sentence. Consider for example "ro ko'a poi broda cu brode" vs "ro ko'a brode", or "no ko'a poi broda cu brode" vs "no ko'a brode". Consider other examples: > (1) {ti poi toldi}: At least in the way my mind works, when I point at > something, I point at a specific thing; I just need to give a clue to the > listener about what I am exactly pointing at. It is not like I am pointin= g > at a bunch of things and selecting a butterfly out of them. > > (2) {ma'a po'u lo pilno be me'o denpa bu girzu}: When I use a personal > pronoun, I have a clear conscience about who I am talking about. Again, I > just have to give a clue to the se cusku because the pronoun is too > general. > Then I think "ti noi toldi", "ma'a no'u ..." would make more sense. "poi" is there to restrict the referents of "ti"/"ma'a", not to just comment on them. (3) {ra poi danlu}: An alternative to {lo bi'u nai mlatu}. > I think that should be "noi". Using "poi" to restrict from different possible antecedents of "ra" seems like a metalinguistic deviation from ordinary "poi". And, finally, if we want to talk about part of the referent, there is > always {lo me ko'a}. > I'd rather say "some of the referents" than "part of the referent", which could be confused with "lo pagbu be ko'a". mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --001a11340450e0364104f1db560f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Fri, Feb 7, 2014 at 10:32 PM, Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis <f= elipeg.assis@gmail.com> wrote:
On 7 February 2014 22:40, Jorge Llamb=EDas = <jjllambias@gm= ail.com> wrote:


That's how "poi" works with qu= antifiers after all. "ci ko'a poi broda" quantifies over the = referents of ko'a restricted to those that satisfy broda.=A0


I know about the rule for quantifiers, but it still can be seen as the r= elative clause adding a statement about the bound variable. It doesn't = change the fact that removing the relative clause preserves the truth of a = sentence. The parse doesn't help here, by the way.

(ko'a is not a= bound variable though)

Removing the relative clau= se does, in general, change the truth of the sentence. Consider for example= "ro ko'a poi broda cu brode" vs "ro ko'a brode"= ;, or "no ko'a poi broda cu brode" vs "no ko'a brode= ".=A0
=A0

Consider other examples:
(1) {ti poi tol= di}: At least in the way my mind works, when I point at something, I point = at a specific thing; I just need to give a clue to the listener about what = I am exactly pointing at. It is not like I am pointing at a bunch of things= and selecting a butterfly out of them.

(2) {ma'a po'u lo pilno be me&#= 39;o denpa bu girzu}: When I use a personal pronoun, I have a clear conscie= nce about who I am talking about. Again, I just have to give a clue to the = se cusku because the pronoun is too general.=A0

=A0Then I think "ti= noi toldi", "ma'a no'u ..." would make more sense. = "poi" is there to restrict the referents of "ti"/"= ma'a", not to just comment on them.=A0

(3) {ra poi danlu}: An alternative to {lo bi'u nai mlatu}.

I think that should be= "noi". Using "poi" to restrict from different possible= antecedents of "ra" seems like a metalinguistic deviation from o= rdinary "poi".=A0

And, finally, if we want to talk about part of the referent, there is = always {lo me ko'a}.

I'd rather say "some of the referents" than "part = of the referent", which could be confused with "lo pagbu be ko= 9;a".

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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