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Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2014 11:12:31 -0200
Message-ID: <CAO7tK2d+SfenMphDDpHxK4UeHFsLQ7SC4RRT8+P1bo+7za=6aQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Individuals and xorlo
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
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On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 8:05 AM, guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Why don't you define
> {lo no broda} =ca'e {zi'o noi ke'a broda}
> only for the case that PA=no?
>
> Under the condition that there is no official plural quantifier in Lojban,
> the inclusion of {lo no broda} is necessary for keeping the expressiveness
> of Lojban equal to that of plural quantification.
>

If "zi'o" did what you wanted, then official Lojban would already have that
expressiveness, wouldn't it?

But "zi'o" doesn't work for what you want. "zi'o sruri lo dinju" is true
when some students are surrounding the building. "zi'o" doesn't say that
nothing satisfies the predicate. "zi'o" changes the predicate to a new
predicate that doesn't have that place. It's hard to describe what exactly
the new predicate resulting from "zi'o poi tadni cu sruri" means, but it
does not mean "x2 is not surrounded by students".


I would call {lo broda} "Something that is/are broda": I think it's enough
> for the most general value that is "something in a domain of plural
> variable", and no other description on the sumti is sufficient to describe
> the most general plural constant.
> Using technical terms without definition is source of misleading.
>

One problem with using "something" is that it looks very much like a
quantifier. Another problem for me (perhaps not so much for others) is that
being a singular word, it seems to be talking about one thing. You sort of
get around that a bit with the plural verb, "something that are broda", but
that is ungrammatical English. You say "the most general value", but the
whole point of plural logic is that a variable takes _values_, not _a
value_.

Based on this simple definition, we can define "individual", "sumti that
> satisfies a selbri collectively" and "a set", then the readers will
> understand the whole aspect of gadri.
>

If by "a set" you mean, for example, "lo selcmi", then it is an individual
as well. Everything is an individual in this context, there is nothing that
is not an individual.


> I'm not sure if it is permitted to edit the BPFK page of green line, but
> if you don't mind, I will try to modify the description of gadri page so
> that everyone will understand gadri correctly.
>

The page doesn't appear to be locked, but I don't think it's a good idea to
edit it. It's better if you create a new page with your take on things.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 8:05 AM, guskant <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:gusni.kantu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gusni.kantu@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D""><div><br></=
div></div><div>Why don&#39;t you define=A0</div><div>{lo no broda} =3Dca=
9;e {zi&#39;o noi ke&#39;a broda}</div>
<div>only for the case that PA=3Dno?</div><div><br></div><div>Under the con=
dition that there is no official plural quantifier in Lojban, the inclusion=
 of {lo no broda} is necessary for keeping=A0the expressiveness of Lojban e=
qual to that of plural quantification.</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>If &quot;zi&#39;o&quot; did what you=
 wanted, then official Lojban would already have that expressiveness, would=
n&#39;t it?</div><div><br></div><div>But &quot;zi&#39;o&quot; doesn&#39;t w=
ork for what you want. &quot;zi&#39;o sruri lo dinju&quot; is true when som=
e students are surrounding the building. &quot;zi&#39;o&quot; doesn&#39;t s=
ay that nothing satisfies the predicate. &quot;zi&#39;o&quot; changes the p=
redicate to a new predicate that doesn&#39;t have that place. It&#39;s hard=
 to describe what exactly the new predicate resulting from &quot;zi&#39;o p=
oi tadni cu sruri&quot; means, but it does not mean &quot;x2 is not surroun=
ded by students&quot;.</div>
<div>=A0</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div class=3D""><div>I would call {lo broda} &quot;Something that is/are =
broda&quot;: I think it&#39;s enough for the most general value=A0that is &=
quot;something in a domain of plural variable&quot;, and no other descripti=
on on the sumti is sufficient to describe the most general plural constant.=
<br>
</div></div><div>Using technical terms without definition is source of misl=
eading.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>One problem with using =
&quot;something&quot; is that it looks very much like a quantifier. Another=
 problem for me (perhaps not so much for others) is that being a singular w=
ord, it seems to be talking about one thing. You sort of get around that a =
bit with the plural verb, &quot;something that are broda&quot;, but that is=
 ungrammatical English. You say &quot;the most general value&quot;, but the=
 whole point of plural logic is that a variable takes _values_, not _a valu=
e_.</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Based o=
n this simple definition, we can define &quot;individual&quot;, &quot;sumti=
 that satisfies a selbri collectively&quot; and &quot;a set&quot;, then the=
 readers will understand the whole aspect of gadri.</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>If by &quot;a set&quot; you mean, fo=
r example, &quot;lo selcmi&quot;, then it is an individual as well. Everyth=
ing is an individual in this context, there is nothing that is not an indiv=
idual.=A0</div>
<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I&#39;m =
not sure if it is permitted to edit the BPFK page of green line, but if you=
 don&#39;t mind, I will try to modify the description of gadri page so that=
 everyone will understand gadri correctly.</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The page doesn&#39;t appear to be lo=
cked, but I don&#39;t think it&#39;s a good idea to edit it. It&#39;s bette=
r if you create a new page with your take on things.=A0</div><div><br></div=
>
<div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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