Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2014 05:35:03 -0800 (PST)
From: guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Individuals and xorlo
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Le dimanche 9 f=C3=A9vrier 2014 21:39:10 UTC+9, selpa'i a =C3=A9crit :
>
> la .guskant. cu cusku di'e=20
> > Suppose a universe of discourse is given, where {lo linji} is in a=20
> > domain of plural variable.=20
> > In this universe of discourse, {lo linji xi no} can be separated into=
=20
> > shorter {lo linji xi pany}:=20
> >=20
> > lo linji xi pano cu me lo linji xi no=20
> > i=20
> > lo linji xi papa cu me lo linji xi no=20
> > i=20
> > ...=20
>
> That sounds like {pagbu} to me, although all those lines should be the=20
> same line mathematically, as they are all infinitely long. If you mean=20
> line segments, then I really would use {pagbu}.=20
>
>


The definition of {linji} does not say that a line segment is not {linji}:
linji: x_1 se cimde pa da gi'e se cmima x_2 noi mokca

In any case, the selbri used here is not important.
Simply, in that universe of discourse, {lo linji} are recognized like that.


=20

> > Repeat the separation also for {lo linji xi pany}.=20
> > After infinite times of separation, {lo linji} is finally separated int=
o=20
> > {lo mokca} which is individual:=20
> >=20
> > RO DA poi ke'a me lo mokca zo'u lo mokca me DA=20
>
> And you can also have a {lo mokca} that refers to more than one=20
> individual.=20
>
> In any case, the fact that {lo mokca} is individual does not entail that=
=20
> {lo linji} does not refer to individuals.=20
>
> Splitting an object and coming up with two entirely new sumti to=20
> describe each of the two resulting parts is not the same as saying that=
=20
> those two parts were {me lo <object>} all along. In other words, if I=20
> have a single expanse of water, then {lo djacu} is an individual, even=20
> if I have the ability to part the water (by filling it in two separate=20
> containers for instance) and ending up with two new {lo djacu}. The=20
> original {lo djacu} was still an individual. Splitting the water creates=
=20
> new objects in the universe of discourse, because the situation changes.=
=20
>
> > but for any shorter {lo linji}:=20
> >=20
> > naku lo linji me lo mokca=20
>
> I would say that, since lines are not points:=20
>
>     no da poi linji ku'o su'o de poi mokca zo'u: da me de=20
>
> No line is ever among something that is a point. And the reverse is also=
=20
> true: No point is among a line. Points are parts of lines, but they=20
> don't share the same referent(s).=20
>
>


I don't care about that point.

Actually, I didn't need {lo mokca} in order to say that any {lo linji} are=
=20
not one or more individuals.
I mentioned {lo mokca} only for clarifying the structure of {lo linji}, but=
=20
it was really unnecessary.
Only I need to say is that {lo linji xi ny me lo linji xi my} continues=20
infinitely in that universe of discourse.

In other words, this is an infinite instance of {lo re prenu cu me lo mu=20
prenu}.

=20

> > Therefore, any {lo linji} does not satisfy=20
> > RO DA poi ke'a me lo linji zo'u lo linji me DA=20
> >=20
> > {lo linji} in this universe of discourse is not an individual.=20
>
> It sounds to me like you are taking "individual" to mean "atomic,=20
> non-separable thing". But individual just means that it can be=20
> distinguished from other things as a referent.=20
>
>

No, What you think individual is actually

X me Y ije Y me X

which is a definition of "X are the same thing as Y" of plural logic.
It does not mean individual.
=20

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br>Le dimanche 9 f=C3=A9vrier 2014 21:39:10 UTC+9, se=
lpa'i a =C3=A9crit&nbsp;:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">la .g=
uskant. cu cusku di'e
<br>&gt; Suppose a universe of discourse is given, where {lo linji} is in a
<br>&gt; domain of plural variable.
<br>&gt; In this universe of discourse, {lo linji xi no} can be separated i=
nto
<br>&gt; shorter {lo linji xi pany}:
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; lo linji xi pano cu me lo linji xi no
<br>&gt; i
<br>&gt; lo linji xi papa cu me lo linji xi no
<br>&gt; i
<br>&gt; ...
<br>
<br>That sounds like {pagbu} to me, although all those lines should be the=
=20
<br>same line mathematically, as they are all infinitely long. If you mean=
=20
<br>line segments, then I really would use {pagbu}.
<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>The defi=
nition of {linji} does not say that a line segment is not {linji}:</div><di=
v>linji: x_1 se cimde pa da gi'e se cmima x_2 noi mokca</div><div><br></div=
><div>In any case, the selbri used here is not important.</div><div>Simply,=
 in that universe of discourse, {lo linji} are recognized like that.</div><=
div><br></div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left: 1ex;">&gt; Repeat the separation also for {lo linji xi pany}.
<br>&gt; After infinite times of separation, {lo linji} is finally separate=
d into
<br>&gt; {lo mokca} which is individual:
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; RO DA poi ke'a me lo mokca zo'u lo mokca me DA
<br>
<br>And you can also have a {lo mokca} that refers to more than one individ=
ual.
<br>
<br>In any case, the fact that {lo mokca} is individual does not entail tha=
t=20
<br>{lo linji} does not refer to individuals.
<br>
<br>Splitting an object and coming up with two entirely new sumti to=20
<br>describe each of the two resulting parts is not the same as saying that=
=20
<br>those two parts were {me lo &lt;object&gt;} all along. In other words, =
if I=20
<br>have a single expanse of water, then {lo djacu} is an individual, even=
=20
<br>if I have the ability to part the water (by filling it in two separate=
=20
<br>containers for instance) and ending up with two new {lo djacu}. The=20
<br>original {lo djacu} was still an individual. Splitting the water create=
s=20
<br>new objects in the universe of discourse, because the situation changes=
.
<br>
<br>&gt; but for any shorter {lo linji}:
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; naku lo linji me lo mokca
<br>
<br>I would say that, since lines are not points:
<br>
<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; no da poi linji ku'o su'o de poi mokca zo'u: da me de
<br>
<br>No line is ever among something that is a point. And the reverse is als=
o=20
<br>true: No point is among a line. Points are parts of lines, but they=20
<br>don't share the same referent(s).
<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div><br></div><div>I d=
on't care about that point.</div><div><br></div><div>Actually, I didn't nee=
d {lo mokca} in order to say that any {lo linji} are not one or more indivi=
duals.</div><div>I mentioned {lo mokca} only for clarifying the structure o=
f {lo linji}, but it was really unnecessary.</div><div>Only I need to say i=
s that {lo linji xi ny me lo linji xi my} continues infinitely in that univ=
erse of discourse.</div><div><br></div><div>In other words, this is an infi=
nite instance of {lo re prenu cu me lo mu prenu}.</div><div><br></div></div=
><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;marg=
in-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">&gt; Therefo=
re, any {lo linji} does not satisfy
<br>&gt; RO DA poi ke'a me lo linji zo'u lo linji me DA
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; {lo linji} in this universe of discourse is not an individual.
<br>
<br>It sounds to me like you are taking "individual" to mean "atomic,=20
<br>non-separable thing". But individual just means that it can be=20
<br>distinguished from other things as a referent.
<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>No, What you think indi=
vidual is actually</div><div><br></div><div>X me Y ije Y me X</div><div><br=
></div><div>which is a definition of "X are the same thing as Y" of plural =
logic.</div><div>It does not mean individual.</div><div>&nbsp;</div></div>

<p></p>

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