Received: from mail-qa0-f58.google.com ([209.85.216.58]:40459) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WChnz-0000AC-4d for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 09 Feb 2014 19:45:22 -0800 Received: by mail-qa0-f58.google.com with SMTP id i13sf1676488qae.3 for ; Sun, 09 Feb 2014 19:45:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=bIsZvSC2SnSiHh4sqGPlQwqkwhz5eRZh+VZLOhQTMTo=; b=ptT37hFUiKSNACcTbQPXXlNu5i01Vtzrz4RiKkYayJvObGmoq6j0SrqfBgAEA/sHni 36lJ0o4sAdlZqdP0v+uRRHQBQPREp6lBFk+F+9/zchiuRiI5Y+YBVdnhDqX7k8ednpxa rb1fRtvDMcGT8RMcmxAFmjRmhmOKIJrhAceMPrFdyzlahMumriADN5lLnU2KU26RhMHI ydAmGE7gJtKOhG6B77cU8C5jsqpaNP3fswiPbsgb4dsYLCcS6SNXYAbEUotd0BVJYNmt a9SU88k00cB3CWuQWybL7MYxsU8BZtGYFEHdn37DuYqE59S37N1lNSHFyh0q4KyFsbfU 2aHg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=bIsZvSC2SnSiHh4sqGPlQwqkwhz5eRZh+VZLOhQTMTo=; b=FWf2hw+3XcfLqlZuxq6DC6XRfpWk8Cu0QbeLkCBytyYOuaWJ+Ho5yr/ZuahRsHnAZt zb3RQ0qwIc/RP43d5kuWRkX1mXbTN7jVWvV0GAsI9FBlwEj0mMgAMhZcxtb/jGu837j+ 6zUZfbePA+mNQQa65PaCe6zimecXNDsBgD4so3vyNgu430Czm86oATc5B3gz8NhLoFPF 1AWWrHykUMKfHnZ2tNlm3YV3yVZ6loLg4QQjkI4/hlgoQamyIK73ZEGUDY0T0Ht09tn7 ljUq2EcNNyAVj2PdVYMdcazhY06SI3nCDEwshgih+vfcgvdSCGBND+p2+idfxYFrgtWu bQ+A== X-Received: by 10.50.230.34 with SMTP id sv2mr187014igc.9.1392003904520; Sun, 09 Feb 2014 19:45:04 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.61.237 with SMTP id t13ls1759460igr.38.canary; Sun, 09 Feb 2014 19:45:04 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.50.107.67 with SMTP id ha3mr189359igb.7.1392003903940; Sun, 09 Feb 2014 19:45:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2014 19:45:02 -0800 (PST) From: guskant To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <1bf977bb-c0f4-4209-a9e8-dd8fc717ea5f@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <52F26B9E.2090001@gmx.de> <5e023b9a-515c-432b-a389-8f9af4766b51@googlegroups.com> <52F29ED8.1050607@gmx.de> <372dd8f1-1920-4afa-8d11-aa55696982a0@googlegroups.com> <03555bbd-cc44-426f-94ee-65d557f2d301@googlegroups.com> <592497c0-5db5-420e-867f-8df1663eca27@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Individuals and xorlo MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gusni.kantu@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2892_25358945.1392003902910" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_2892_25358945.1392003902910 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Le dimanche 9 f=C3=A9vrier 2014 22:12:31 UTC+9, xorxes a =C3=A9crit : > > > On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 8:05 AM, guskant = >wrote: > >> >> Why don't you define=20 >> {lo no broda} =3Dca'e {zi'o noi ke'a broda} >> only for the case that PA=3Dno? >> >> Under the condition that there is no official plural quantifier in=20 >> Lojban, the inclusion of {lo no broda} is necessary for keeping the=20 >> expressiveness of Lojban equal to that of plural quantification. >> > > If "zi'o" did what you wanted, then official Lojban would already have=20 > that expressiveness, wouldn't it? > > But "zi'o" doesn't work for what you want. "zi'o sruri lo dinju" is true= =20 > when some students are surrounding the building. "zi'o" doesn't say that= =20 > nothing satisfies the predicate. "zi'o" changes the predicate to a new=20 > predicate that doesn't have that place. It's hard to describe what exactl= y=20 > the new predicate resulting from "zi'o poi tadni cu sruri" means, but it= =20 > does not mean "x2 is not surrounded by students". > =20 > I see. However, under the conditions that: - {lo broda} is defined as a plural constant, and=20 - a logical axiom for a plural constant C is given as F(C) {inaja} there is X such that F(X), {lo no broda} is now excluded from the language. In order to take it back and to give a reasonable meaning for it, we need= =20 an additional definition applied only to {lo no broda}. How do you think the following suggestion? {lo no broda} =3Dca'e {naku lo broda}=20 only for the case that PA=3Dno. {naku lo broda} should be actually {naku lo su'oi broda} with a plural=20 quantifier {su'oi} that you once proposed, but it is not necessary to=20 mention it in the definition if the innner quantifiers are in general an=20 implicit expression of plural quantifiers. =20 > > I would call {lo broda} "Something that is/are broda": I think it's enoug= h=20 >> for the most general value that is "something in a domain of plural=20 >> variable", and no other description on the sumti is sufficient to descri= be=20 >> the most general plural constant. >> Using technical terms without definition is source of misleading. >> > > One problem with using "something" is that it looks very much like a=20 > quantifier. Another problem for me (perhaps not so much for others) is th= at=20 > being a singular word, it seems to be talking about one thing. You sort o= f=20 > get around that a bit with the plural verb, "something that are broda", b= ut=20 > that is ungrammatical English. You say "the most general value", but the= =20 > whole point of plural logic is that a variable takes _values_, not _a=20 > value_. > > Those problems are caused by the English language, and then I would better= =20 abandon using "something". I would suggest instead: {lo broda} =3Dca'e "what is/are broda"=20 With this definition, it seems that the problems you remarked on will be=20 avoided. =20 > Based on this simple definition, we can define "individual", "sumti that= =20 >> satisfies a selbri collectively" and "a set", then the readers will=20 >> understand the whole aspect of gadri. >> > > If by "a set" you mean, for example, "lo selcmi", then it is an individua= l=20 > as well. Everything is an individual in this context, there is nothing th= at=20 > is not an individual.=20 > =20 > Of course a set is an individual. Once the terms "individual" and "set" are= =20 defined, it will be easy to explain that {lo selcmi} is one or more=20 individuals: {lo selcmi} is a set or sets. a set is an individual: when {lo selcmi} refers to one set, RO DA poi ke'a me lo selcmi zo'u lo selcmi me DA If definition of terms are not given, "a set is an individual" cannot be=20 explained. =20 > I'm not sure if it is permitted to edit the BPFK page of green line, but= =20 >> if you don't mind, I will try to modify the description of gadri page so= =20 >> that everyone will understand gadri correctly. >> > > The page doesn't appear to be locked, but I don't think it's a good idea= =20 > to edit it. It's better if you create a new page with your take on things= .=20 > OK, I will not touch the gadri page. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_2892_25358945.1392003902910 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Le dimanche 9 f=C3=A9vrier 2014 22:12:31 UTC+9, xo= rxes a =C3=A9crit :

On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 8:05 = AM, guskant <gusn= i...@gmail.com> wrote:

<= div>Why don't you define 
{lo no broda} =3Dca'e {zi'o noi ke= 'a broda}
only for the case that PA=3Dno?

Under the con= dition that there is no official plural quantifier in Lojban, the inclusion= of {lo no broda} is necessary for keeping the expressiveness of Lojba= n equal to that of plural quantification.

If "zi'o" did what you wanted, then = official Lojban would already have that expressiveness, wouldn't it?
<= div>
But "zi'o" doesn't work for what you want. "zi'o sruri l= o dinju" is true when some students are surrounding the building. "zi'o" do= esn't say that nothing satisfies the predicate. "zi'o" changes the predicat= e to a new predicate that doesn't have that place. It's hard to describe wh= at exactly the new predicate resulting from "zi'o poi tadni cu sruri" means= , but it does not mean "x2 is not surrounded by students".
 


I see. However, under the conditions that:
- {lo broda} i= s defined as a plural constant, and 
- a logical axiom for a= plural constant C is given as
F(C) {inaja} there is X such that = F(X),
{lo no broda} is now excluded from the language.
= In order to take it back and to give a reasonable meaning for it, we need a= n additional definition applied only to {lo no broda}.

=
How do you think the following suggestion?

{l= o no broda} =3Dca'e {naku lo broda} 
only for the case that = PA=3Dno.

{naku lo broda} should be actually {naku = lo su'oi broda} with a plural quantifier {su'oi} that you once proposed, bu= t it is not necessary to mention it in the definition if the innner quantif= iers are in general an implicit expression of plural quantifiers.


 

I would call {l= o broda} "Something that is/are broda": I think it's enough for the most ge= neral value that is "something in a domain of plural variable", and no= other description on the sumti is sufficient to describe the most general = plural constant.
Using technical terms without definition is source of misl= eading.

One problem with using = "something" is that it looks very much like a quantifier. Another problem f= or me (perhaps not so much for others) is that being a singular word, it se= ems to be talking about one thing. You sort of get around that a bit with t= he plural verb, "something that are broda", but that is ungrammatical Engli= sh. You say "the most general value", but the whole point of plural logic i= s that a variable takes _values_, not _a value_.



Those problems are caused by the English language, and then I would b= etter abandon using "something".
I would suggest instead:

{lo broda} =3Dca'e "what is/are broda" 
With this definition, it seems that the problems you remarked = on will be avoided.


 
Based on this simple definition, we can define "individual", "sumti t= hat satisfies a selbri collectively" and "a set", then the readers will und= erstand the whole aspect of gadri.

If by "a set" you mean, for example,= "lo selcmi", then it is an individual as well. Everything is an individual= in this context, there is nothing that is not an individual. 
 


Of course a set is an individual. Once the terms "individual" and "= set" are defined, it will be easy to explain that {lo selcmi} is one or mor= e individuals:

{lo selcmi} is a set or sets.
=
a set is an individual: when {lo selcmi} refers to one set,
= RO DA poi ke'a me lo selcmi zo'u lo selcmi me DA

I= f definition of terms are not given, "a set is an individual" cannot be exp= lained.


 
I'm not sure if it= is permitted to edit the BPFK page of green line, but if you don't mind, I= will try to modify the description of gadri page so that everyone will und= erstand gadri correctly.

The page doesn't appear to be locked= , but I don't think it's a good idea to edit it. It's better if you create = a new page with your take on things. 


OK, I will not touch the gadri page.=
 

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