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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 18:42:45 -0200
Message-ID: <CAO7tK2ew5uxuNNueOcuaQbSh876dzFyFfX5dqYDcGObCO=2XrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Individuals and xorlo
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
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On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 12:45 AM, guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>  However, under the conditions that:
> - {lo broda} is defined as a plural constant, and
> - a logical axiom for a plural constant C is given as
> F(C) {inaja} there is X such that F(X),
> {lo no broda} is now excluded from the language.
>

Yes, in the same sense that "lo ni'u pa broda" is exluded. They are
grammatical expressions but not with any standard meaning.


> In order to take it back and to give a reasonable meaning for it, we need
> an additional definition applied only to {lo no broda}.
>
> How do you think the following suggestion?
>
> {lo no broda} =ca'e {naku lo broda}
> only for the case that PA=no.
>

I think that's how it will be usually understood, yes. I wouldn't make it
an official definition though, just because it's unnecessary and breaks the
simplicity of other rules (such as "lo PA broda" being a referring
expression).


> {naku lo broda} should be actually {naku lo su'oi broda} with a plural
> quantifier {su'oi} that you once proposed, but it is not necessary to
> mention it in the definition if the innner quantifiers are in general an
> implicit expression of plural quantifiers.
>

Actually, it should be just "naku lo [su'o] broda", with a generic "lo
[su'o] broda", or "naku su'oi lo broda". The so called "inner quantifiers"
are not actually true quantifiers but just cardinalities, and only natural
numbers or things like "su'o", "za'u", "so'i" etc that can stand for
natural numbers really make sense there. I wouldn't know what to make of
"lo su'oi broda".


Those problems are caused by the English language, and then I would better
> abandon using "something".
> I would suggest instead:
>
> {lo broda} =ca'e "what is/are broda"
>
> With this definition, it seems that the problems you remarked on will be
> avoided.
>

OK. I don't vouch for the idiomaticity of the results if you use that for
direct translations though.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 12:45 AM, guskant <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:gusni.kantu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gusni.kantu@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D""><div><br></=
div></div><div>=A0However, under the conditions that:</div><div>- {lo broda=
} is defined as a plural constant, and=A0</div>
<div>- a logical axiom for a plural constant C is given as</div><div class=
=3D""><div>F(C) {inaja} there is X such that F(X),</div></div><div>{lo no b=
roda} is now excluded from the language.</div></div></blockquote><div><br>
</div><div>Yes, in the same sense that &quot;lo ni&#39;u pa broda&quot; is =
exluded. They are grammatical expressions but not with any standard meaning=
.</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>In order to take it back and to give a reasonable mea=
ning for it, we need an additional definition applied only to {lo no broda}=
.</div><div><br></div><div>How do you think the following suggestion?</div>
<div><br></div><div>{lo no broda} =3Dca&#39;e {naku lo broda}=A0</div><div>=
only for the case that PA=3Dno.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div=
>I think that&#39;s how it will be usually understood, yes. I wouldn&#39;t =
make it an official definition though, just because it&#39;s unnecessary an=
d breaks the simplicity of other rules (such as &quot;lo PA broda&quot; bei=
ng a referring expression).</div>
<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>{naku lo=
 broda} should be actually {naku lo su&#39;oi broda} with a plural quantifi=
er {su&#39;oi} that you once proposed, but it is not necessary to mention i=
t in the definition if the innner quantifiers are in general an implicit ex=
pression of plural quantifiers.</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Actually, it should be just &quot;na=
ku lo [su&#39;o] broda&quot;, with a generic &quot;lo [su&#39;o] broda&quot=
;, or &quot;naku su&#39;oi lo broda&quot;. The so called &quot;inner quanti=
fiers&quot; are not actually true quantifiers but just cardinalities, and o=
nly natural numbers or things like &quot;su&#39;o&quot;, &quot;za&#39;u&quo=
t;, &quot;so&#39;i&quot; etc that can stand for natural numbers really make=
 sense there. I wouldn&#39;t know what to make of &quot;lo su&#39;oi broda&=
quot;.=A0</div>
<div>=A0</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div>Those problems are caused by the English language, and then I would =
better abandon using &quot;something&quot;.</div>
<div>I would suggest instead:</div><div><br></div><div>{lo broda} =3Dca&#39=
;e &quot;what is/are broda&quot;=A0</div><div><br></div><div>With this defi=
nition, it seems that the problems you remarked on will be avoided.</div></=
div>
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>OK. I don&#39;t vouch for the idiomaticity=
 of the results if you use that for direct translations though.</div><div><=
br></div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</div><div><br></div></div></div>
</div>

<p></p>

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