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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 18:34:15 -0500
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Subject: Re: [lojban] [oz] {ny poi cy ke'a falcru}
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
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  So, about the original question, I do think that you can use a basysu'i
that encompasses an entire group or mass and then further specified
downward by quantifiers or relative clauses/phrases to include only part of
it.

  As for "ti poi toldi" vs "ti noi toldi" I see what you are asserting, but
I can't hear "ti poi toldi" as  anything other than "The subset of these
that are butterflies...." and "ti noi toldi" as "this/these, which is/are a
butterfly/butterflies...."

                         -gejyspa


On Sat, Feb 8, 2014 at 1:07 PM, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com> =
wrote:

>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 8, 2014 at 2:09 PM, Felipe Gon=C3=A7alves Assis <
> felipeg.assis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> When I say {ti poi toldi}, I am making it clear what I am pointing to,
>> while when I say {ti noi toldi}, I expect you to understand what I am
>> pointing to, and I am giving the information that it is a butterfly. In =
the
>> latter case, I might be presuming, for example, that you don't know that
>> the colourful thing I am pointing at is in fact a butterfly. In the form=
er,
>> the information in the relative clause has a clear purpose: it is there =
to
>> clarify the reference.
>>
>
> Good point. That's why I've always been uneasy with "ti poi toldi" as
> opposed to "lo vi toldi".
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 So, about the original question, I do think that yo=
u can use a basysu&#39;i that encompasses an entire group or mass and then =
further specified downward by quantifiers or relative clauses/phrases to in=
clude only part of it.<div>
<br></div><div>=C2=A0 As for &quot;ti poi toldi&quot; vs &quot;ti noi toldi=
&quot; I see what you are asserting, but I can&#39;t hear &quot;ti poi told=
i&quot; as =C2=A0anything other than &quot;The subset of these that are but=
terflies....&quot; and &quot;ti noi toldi&quot; as &quot;this/these, which =
is/are a butterfly/butterflies....&quot;=C2=A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-gejyspa</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Feb 8, 2014 at 1:07 PM, J=
orge Llamb=C3=ADas <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank">jjllambias@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">On Sat, Feb 8, 2014 =
at 2:09 PM, Felipe Gon=C3=A7alves Assis <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:felipeg.assis@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">felipeg.assis@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div>When I say {ti poi toldi}, I=
 am making it clear what I am pointing to, while when I say {ti noi toldi},=
 I expect you to understand what I am pointing to, and I am giving the info=
rmation that it is a butterfly. In the latter case, I might be presuming, f=
or example, that you don&#39;t know that the colourful thing I am pointing =
at is in fact a butterfly. In the former, the information in the relative c=
lause has a clear purpose: it is there to clarify the reference.<br>

</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Good point. =
That&#39;s why I&#39;ve always been uneasy with &quot;ti poi toldi&quot; as=
 opposed to &quot;lo vi toldi&quot;.</div><div class=3D""><div><br></div>
<div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</div>
<div><br></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"=
h5">

<p></p>

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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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