Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 16:57:24 -0800 (PST)
From: guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Individuals and xorlo
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Le mardi 11 f=C3=A9vrier 2014 05:42:45 UTC+9, xorxes a =C3=A9crit :
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 12:45 AM, guskant <gusni...@gmail.com<javascript:=
>
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>  However, under the conditions that:
>> - {lo broda} is defined as a plural constant, and=20
>> - a logical axiom for a plural constant C is given as
>> F(C) {inaja} there is X such that F(X),
>> {lo no broda} is now excluded from the language.
>>
>
> Yes, in the same sense that "lo ni'u pa broda" is exluded. They are=20
> grammatical expressions but not with any standard meaning.
> =20
>
>> In order to take it back and to give a reasonable meaning for it, we nee=
d=20
>> an additional definition applied only to {lo no broda}.
>>
>> How do you think the following suggestion?
>>
>> {lo no broda} =3Dca'e {naku lo broda}=20
>> only for the case that PA=3Dno.
>>
>
> I think that's how it will be usually understood, yes. I wouldn't make it=
=20
> an official definition though, just because it's unnecessary and breaks t=
he=20
> simplicity of other rules (such as "lo PA broda" being a referring=20
> expression).
> =20
>


OK, then I will give it as an unofficial interpretation on my future=20
personal gadri page, because it is necessary for me to include a=20
conversation like
- lo xo prenu cu jmaji gi'e jukpa gi'e citka
 - no
in the language.


=20

> {naku lo broda} should be actually {naku lo su'oi broda} with a plural=20
>> quantifier {su'oi} that you once proposed, but it is not necessary to=20
>> mention it in the definition if the innner quantifiers are in general an=
=20
>> implicit expression of plural quantifiers.
>>
>
> Actually, it should be just "naku lo [su'o] broda", with a generic "lo=20
> [su'o] broda", or "naku su'oi lo broda". The so called "inner quantifiers=
"=20
> are not actually true quantifiers but just cardinalities, and only natura=
l=20
> numbers or things like "su'o", "za'u", "so'i" etc that can stand for=20
> natural numbers really make sense there. I wouldn't know what to make of=
=20
> "lo su'oi broda".=20
> =20
>
> Those problems are caused by the English language, and then I would bette=
r=20
>> abandon using "something".
>> I would suggest instead:
>>
>> {lo broda} =3Dca'e "what is/are broda"=20
>>
>> With this definition, it seems that the problems you remarked on will be=
=20
>> avoided.
>>
>
> OK. I don't vouch for the idiomaticity of the results if you use that for=
=20
> direct translations though.
>
>

Thank you for your opinion. I will include this interpretation on my future=
=20
personal gadri page.

=20

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br>Le mardi 11 f=C3=A9vrier 2014 05:42:45 UTC+9, xorx=
es a =C3=A9crit&nbsp;:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;=
margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 12:45 =
AM, guskant <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank"=
 gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"M5GwmQZ110AJ" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D'javascr=
ipt:';return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D'javascript:';return true;">gusn=
i...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><br></div></div><=
div>&nbsp;However, under the conditions that:</div><div>- {lo broda} is def=
ined as a plural constant, and&nbsp;</div>
<div>- a logical axiom for a plural constant C is given as</div><div><div>F=
(C) {inaja} there is X such that F(X),</div></div><div>{lo no broda} is now=
 excluded from the language.</div></div></blockquote><div><br>
</div><div>Yes, in the same sense that "lo ni'u pa broda" is exluded. They =
are grammatical expressions but not with any standard meaning.</div><div>&n=
bsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>In order to take it back and to give a reasonable mea=
ning for it, we need an additional definition applied only to {lo no broda}=
.</div><div><br></div><div>How do you think the following suggestion?</div>
<div><br></div><div>{lo no broda} =3Dca'e {naku lo broda}&nbsp;</div><div>o=
nly for the case that PA=3Dno.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>=
I think that's how it will be usually understood, yes. I wouldn't make it a=
n official definition though, just because it's unnecessary and breaks the =
simplicity of other rules (such as "lo PA broda" being a referring expressi=
on).</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></d=
iv><div>OK, then I will give it as an unofficial interpretation on my futur=
e personal gadri page, because it is necessary for me to include a conversa=
tion like</div><div>- lo xo prenu cu jmaji gi'e jukpa gi'e citka</div><div>=
&nbsp;- no</div><div>in the language.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><d=
iv><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">=
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>{naku lo broda} should be actually {naku lo su'o=
i broda} with a plural quantifier {su'oi} that you once proposed, but it is=
 not necessary to mention it in the definition if the innner quantifiers ar=
e in general an implicit expression of plural quantifiers.</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Actually, it should be just "naku lo=
 [su'o] broda", with a generic "lo [su'o] broda", or "naku su'oi lo broda".=
 The so called "inner quantifiers" are not actually true quantifiers but ju=
st cardinalities, and only natural numbers or things like "su'o", "za'u", "=
so'i" etc that can stand for natural numbers really make sense there. I wou=
ldn't know what to make of "lo su'oi broda".&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div>Those problems are caused by the English language, and then I wou=
ld better abandon using "something".</div>
<div>I would suggest instead:</div><div><br></div><div>{lo broda} =3Dca'e "=
what is/are broda"&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>With this definition, it =
seems that the problems you remarked on will be avoided.</div></div>
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>OK. I don't vouch for the idiomaticity of =
the results if you use that for direct translations though.</div><div><br><=
/div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Than=
k you for your opinion. I will include this interpretation on my future per=
sonal gadri page.</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div></div>

<p></p>

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