Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 17:01:17 -0800 (PST)
From: guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Individuals and xorlo
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Le mardi 11 f=C3=A9vrier 2014 06:15:45 UTC+9, xorxes a =C3=A9crit :
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 11:19 AM, guskant <gusni...@gmail.com<javascript:=
>
> > wrote:
>
>>
>> {lo linji} in that universe of discourse are not individuals but an=20
>> infinite number of non-individuals,=20
>>
>
> I think you want "sirji" (segments), not "linji (lines). In the universe=
=20
> of discourse under consideration there are no segments or lines, there ar=
e=20
> only points. In that universe, we can use the predicate "linji" but with =
a=20
> slightly different definition than the standard: "x1 are all the points=
=20
> aligned with points x2". And "sirji" can be redefined for the points only=
=20
> universe as "x1 are all the points aligned between point x2 and (differen=
t)=20
> point x3".
>
>

I don't think the definition of {x1 linji x2} =3Dca'e {x1 se cimde pa da gi=
'e=20
se cmima x2 noi mokca} excludes line segments, because cimde_2 may have a=
=20
finite interval. We may call it {sirji} if you prefer, but actually the=20
straightness is unnecessary for the current topic.


=20

> Now "lo sirji be abu bei by cu me lo sirji be abu bei cy" is fine, "the=
=20
> points aligned between point a and point b are among the points aligned=
=20
> between point a and point c". As you say, there is no individual "lo sirj=
i"=20
> in this universe. "lo sirji" always refers to an infinite number of point=
s.
>
> The problem arises when you say that "lo sirji is a non-individual". It i=
s=20
> not. lo sirji are just points, not "an" anything. You may call it a=20
> non-individual in some metalanguage, but in the language you can't, becau=
se=20
> there are nothing but points in the universe, nothing else. "lo pa sirji"=
,=20
> in this universe of discourse, is nonsense, because the only things that=
=20
> can sirji cannot do it alone, they must always do it collectively in=20
> infinite numbers. There's only "lo ci'i sirji", "the infinite number of=
=20
> points aligned between two points". If you want to quantify over segments=
,=20
> for example if you want to say something about two segments, you are forc=
ed=20
> to move to a universe of discourse that has segments in it.
>
>

As you remarked on, our mathematical knowledge of lines prevented us from=
=20
understanding, and la selpa'i has kindly changed our topic to {lo sidbo}.
=20

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br>Le mardi 11 f=C3=A9vrier 2014 06:15:45 UTC+9, xorx=
es a =C3=A9crit&nbsp;:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;=
margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><br><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 a=
t 11:19 AM, guskant <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D=
"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"Q1rqnkW_K9AJ" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D=
'javascript:';return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D'javascript:';return tru=
e;">gusni...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><br></div></div><=
div>{lo linji} in that universe of discourse are not individuals but an inf=
inite number of&nbsp;non-individuals,&nbsp;</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think you want "sirji" (segments),=
 not "linji (lines). In the universe of discourse under consideration there=
 are no segments or lines, there are only points. In that universe, we can =
use the predicate "linji" but with a slightly different definition than the=
 standard: "x1 are all the points aligned with points x2". And "sirji" can =
be redefined for the points only universe as "x1 are all the points aligned=
 between point x2 and (different) point x3".</div>
<div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div=
><div>I don't think the definition of {x1 linji x2} =3Dca'e {x1 se cimde pa=
 da gi'e se cmima x2 noi mokca} excludes line segments, because cimde_2 may=
 have a finite interval. We may call it {sirji} if you prefer, but actually=
 the straightness is unnecessary for the current topic.</div><div><br></div=
><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex=
;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div><div>Now "lo=
 sirji be abu bei by cu me lo sirji be abu bei cy" is fine, "the points ali=
gned between point a and point b are among the points aligned between point=
 a and point c". As you say, there is no individual "lo sirji" in this univ=
erse. "lo sirji" always refers to an infinite number of points.</div>
<div><br></div><div>The problem arises when you say that "lo sirji is a non=
-individual". It is not. lo sirji are just points, not "an" anything. You m=
ay call it a non-individual in some metalanguage, but in the language you c=
an't, because there are nothing but points in the universe, nothing else. "=
lo pa sirji", in this universe of discourse, is nonsense, because the only =
things that can sirji cannot do it alone, they must always do it collective=
ly in infinite numbers. There's only "lo ci'i sirji", "the infinite number =
of points aligned between two points". If you want to quantify over segment=
s, for example if you want to say something about two segments, you are for=
ced to move to a universe of discourse that has segments in it.</div>
<div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div=
><div>As you remarked on, our mathematical knowledge of lines prevented us =
from understanding, and la selpa'i has kindly changed our topic to {lo sidb=
o}.</div><div>&nbsp;</div></div>

<p></p>

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