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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 20:20:37 -0200
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Subject: Re: [lojban] [oz] {ze'a lo nu ko'a jmive}
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Felipe_Gon=E7alves_Assis?= <felipeg.assis@gmail.com>
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On 14 February 2014 17:38, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:

>   Two points.  First, why does "lo nu ko'a jmive" have to refer to an
> entire lifespan?  Am I not living between 10 AM and 11AM this morning?  Is
> that span not a "nu ko'a jmive"? (It seems you would be happier if there
> were a "pi so'e" before the "lo nu..." )
>
>
As I said, making {nunji'e} distributive in this manner makes {ze'a lo nu
ko'a jmive} give not enough information in the particular context. Under
this interpretation, the Tin Woodman could, for example, have abandoned his
elderly mother the day after his father's death and still be said to have
taken care of her during "lo nu lo mamta cu jmive". In fact, this
interpretation makes {ze'a lo nu ko'a jmive} pretty much equivalent to {ca
lo nu ko'a jmive}.

Portion-quantifying the expression still misses the point. It doesn't
matter how much of the lifetime is involved. In fact, the widowhood and the
fighting are probably much less than half of the corresponding lifetimes.


  Second, oddly enough, it happens to agree with my own (admittedly,
> non-CLL-standard) interpretation of ZEhA/VEhA+SUMTI, namely that it "ze'i
> ko'a" means "during a small portion of ko'a"; "ze'a ko'a" "about half the
> duration of ko'a"; "ze'u ko'a", "during most of ko'a", and "ze'e ko'a",
> "during all of ko'a".  My argument for these are that otherwise ZEhA+SUMTI
> doesn't make things relative to the sumti, in an analogous manner as
> PU+SUMTI,  FAhA+SUMTI, BAI+SUMTI etc do (and, I would argue, as should
> VA/ZI+SUMTI).  Otherwise what's the point of having four different versions
> when they would all mean the same length of time/distance?)
>
>
Interesting. I will consider this!

In any case, your interpretation doesn't save the particular examples I
gave. As I argued above, they would be true, but miss the point.


  (I know the arguments against this interpretation, but just throwing it
> out there).
>
>
The idea is new to me. If someone could quickly sketch or point the
arguments, I would be grateful.

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On 14 February 2014 17:38, Michael Turniansky <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:mturniansky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mturniansky@gma=
il.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">=A0 Two points. =A0First, w=
hy does &quot;lo nu ko&#39;a jmive&quot; have to refer to an entire lifespa=
n? =A0Am I not living between 10 AM and 11AM this morning? =A0Is that span =
not a &quot;nu ko&#39;a jmive&quot;? (It seems you would be happier if ther=
e were a &quot;pi so&#39;e&quot; before the &quot;lo nu...&quot; )<div>

<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>As I said, making {nunji&#=
39;e} distributive in this manner makes {ze&#39;a lo nu ko&#39;a jmive} giv=
e not enough information in the particular context. Under this interpretati=
on, the Tin Woodman could, for example, have abandoned his elderly mother t=
he day after his father&#39;s death and still be said to have taken care of=
 her during &quot;lo nu lo mamta cu jmive&quot;. In fact, this interpretati=
on makes {ze&#39;a lo nu ko&#39;a jmive} pretty much equivalent to {ca lo n=
u ko&#39;a jmive}.<br>
<br>Portion-quantifying the expression still misses the point. It doesn&#39=
;t matter how much of the lifetime is involved. In fact, the widowhood and =
the fighting are probably much less than half of the corresponding lifetime=
s.<br>
</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div></div><div>=A0 Second, oddly enough, it happens to agree with=
 my own (admittedly, non-CLL-standard) interpretation of ZEhA/VEhA+SUMTI, n=
amely that it &quot;ze&#39;i ko&#39;a&quot; means &quot;during a small port=
ion of ko&#39;a&quot;; &quot;ze&#39;a ko&#39;a&quot; &quot;about half the d=
uration of ko&#39;a&quot;; &quot;ze&#39;u ko&#39;a&quot;, &quot;during most=
 of ko&#39;a&quot;, and &quot;ze&#39;e ko&#39;a&quot;, &quot;during all of =
ko&#39;a&quot;. =A0My argument for these are that otherwise ZEhA+SUMTI does=
n&#39;t make things relative to the sumti, in an analogous manner as PU+SUM=
TI, =A0FAhA+SUMTI, BAI+SUMTI etc do (and, I would argue, as should VA/ZI+SU=
MTI). =A0Otherwise what&#39;s the point of having four different versions w=
hen they would all mean the same length of time/distance?)</div>

<div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Interesting. I will c=
onsider this!<br><br></div><div>In any case, your interpretation doesn&#39;=
t save the particular examples I gave. As I argued above, they would be tru=
e, but miss the point.<br>
<br><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div><d=
iv>=A0 (I know the arguments against this interpretation, but just throwing=
 it out there).</div>
<div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The idea is new to me=
. If someone could quickly sketch or point the arguments, I would be gratef=
ul.<br><br></div><div>mu&#39;o<br>mi&#39;e .asiz.<br></div></div></div>
</div>

<p></p>

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