Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2014 05:13:23 -0800 (PST)
From: guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Individuals and xorlo
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Le mardi 18 f=C3=A9vrier 2014 07:41:04 UTC+9, xorxes a =C3=A9crit :
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 9:24 AM, guskant <gusni...@gmail.com <javascript:=
>
> > wrote:
>
>>
>> For example, we may count {lo rokci} by its spatial detachment from=20
>> environment, by its weight, by its spatial volume, by its radioactivity =
etc.
>>
> =20
> I don't know, that sounds more like "merli" than "kancu". I think "kancu"=
=20
> must always use integers. If "kancu" was so wide open, we could have used=
=20
> "klani" rather than "zilkancu" to define the inner quantifiers.
>  =20
>
>> Even a non-atomist can count {lo rokci} by one-some in some sense: when=
=20
>> {lo rokci} is counted by one becquerel, a non-atomist considers that a h=
alf=20
>> of {lo rokci} is also {me lo rokci}, that {lo rokci} is not an individua=
l,=20
>> and that {lo panono rokci} is still meaningful.
>>
>
> It may be difficult to define what a one-some is without individuals. One=
=20
> way of defining the "PA mei" predicates goes something like this:
>
> Start with "ro'oi da su'o [pa] mei".=20
>
> Then define "su'o N mei" in terms of "su'o N-1 mei" as
>
> ko'a su'o N mei :=3D su'oi da poi me ko'a ku'o su'oi de poi me ko'a zo'u =
 ge=20
> da su'o N-1 mei gi de na me da  =20
>
> And then define "N mei" as:
>
> ko'a N mei  :=3D ko'a su'o N mei gi'e nai su'o N+1 mei=20
>
> I'm not sure if that requires atomicity or not, since all the quantifiers=
=20
> used are plural.
>
> The definition for "lo PA broda" then doesn't require "zilkancu":
>
> lo PA broda :=3D zo'e noi ke'a PA mei gi'e broda
>
>
>

I prefer that definition to the current one because the system of counting=
=20
is clearer than {zilkancu}, though atomicity is still not required for {PA=
=20
mei}.

If we really need atomicity for {lo PA broda}, we could add a condition of=
=20
individual for {lo pa broda}:
{lo pa broda} =3Dca'e {zo'e noi ro'oi da poi ke'a xi pa me ke'a xi re zo'u=
=20
ke'a xi re me da gi'e broda}

However, I think atomicity is not necessary for a definition of inner=20
quantifier.=20
=20

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br>Le mardi 18 f=C3=A9vrier 2014 07:41:04 UTC+9, xorx=
es a =C3=A9crit&nbsp;:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;=
margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><br><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 9:=
24 AM, guskant <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_bla=
nk" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"xi2h6A17CusJ" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D'java=
script:';return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D'javascript:';return true;">g=
usni...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>For example, we may c=
ount {lo rokci} by its spatial detachment from environment, by its weight, =
by its spatial volume, by its radioactivity etc.</div>

</div></blockquote><div>&nbsp;</div><div><div>I don't know, that sounds mor=
e like "merli" than "kancu". I think "kancu" must always use integers. If "=
kancu" was so wide open, we could have used "klani" rather than "zilkancu" =
to define the inner quantifiers.</div>

<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;<br></div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,2=
04,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div> Ev=
en a non-atomist can count {lo rokci} by one-some in some sense: when {lo r=
okci} is counted by one becquerel, a non-atomist considers that a half of {=
lo rokci} is also {me lo rokci}, that {lo rokci} is not an individual, and =
that {lo panono rokci} is still meaningful.</div>

</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It may be difficult to define what a=
 one-some is without individuals. One way of defining the "PA mei" predicat=
es goes something like this:</div><div><br></div><div>Start with "ro'oi da =
su'o [pa] mei".&nbsp;</div>

<div><br></div><div>Then define "su'o N mei" in terms of "su'o N-1 mei" as<=
/div><div><br></div><div>ko'a su'o N mei :=3D su'oi da poi me ko'a ku'o su'=
oi de poi me ko'a zo'u &nbsp;ge da su'o N-1 mei gi de na me da &nbsp;&nbsp;=
</div>

<div><br></div><div>And then define "N mei" as:</div><div><br></div><div>ko=
'a N mei &nbsp;:=3D ko'a su'o N mei gi'e nai su'o N+1 mei&nbsp;</div><div><=
br></div><div>I'm not sure if that requires atomicity or not, since all the=
 quantifiers used are plural.</div>
<div><br></div><div>The definition for "lo PA broda" then doesn't require "=
zilkancu":</div><div><br></div><div>lo PA broda :=3D zo'e noi ke'a PA mei g=
i'e broda</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote=
><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I prefer that definition to the current=
 one because the system of counting is clearer than {zilkancu}, though atom=
icity is still not required for {PA mei}.</div><div><br></div><div>If we re=
ally need atomicity for {lo PA broda}, we could add a condition of individu=
al for {lo pa broda}:</div><div>{lo pa broda} =3Dca'e {zo'e noi ro'oi da po=
i ke'a xi pa me ke'a xi re zo'u ke'a xi re me da gi'e broda}</div><div><br>=
</div><div>However, I think atomicity is not necessary for a definition of =
inner quantifier.&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp;</div></div>

<p></p>

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