Received: from mail-yh0-f55.google.com ([209.85.213.55]:43018) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WHCp0-0006pq-AV for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 22 Feb 2014 05:40:56 -0800 Received: by mail-yh0-f55.google.com with SMTP id f73sf879270yha.10 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2014 05:40:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=KLDXWdBT6i80mkoQRfu5gQJ1KF5TQ2QcRHKyyf0XW1M=; b=pJDL/lgDNLaa1cGt+mODeaYY44XytmC4rBih2Mwes9RJmVua9ebdwgGm56ZuIi/+iD qg/iLxQIJtP8CZLsjfAUTc6GoZGbEp+HyWMd/KamYsE2YkU6C3NTgBtw2SAYZwMDQIbL oYMMha+LfQOlxyLsil88+c8f0/BUAF7ZkRYjNTc/Jg6Wk+UePGdWn3rtuY0VpX5qsFbc pkGbSznswrOBMrqQTk5VBbr8RSY+d4Qulx+yQ9WfsjpYRIOpo2RmWYiYE9sL+7MNcZ4Z jNNcTkCMkYa6oxb4bHFpBUiEN4xY1Nyzx7avPlgl5OMNwdq3wAsx/QD9Nq6jpa5NEteb /JhQ== X-Received: by 10.50.70.3 with SMTP id i3mr2127igu.3.1393076444060; Sat, 22 Feb 2014 05:40:44 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.138.135 with SMTP id qq7ls1118218igb.1.gmail; Sat, 22 Feb 2014 05:40:43 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.67.21.145 with SMTP id hk17mr6121359pad.35.1393076443451; Sat, 22 Feb 2014 05:40:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vc0-x22f.google.com (mail-vc0-x22f.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22f]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id hh7si1840094vdb.1.2014.02.22.05.40.43 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 22 Feb 2014 05:40:43 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22f as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22f; Received: by mail-vc0-f175.google.com with SMTP id ij19so4275221vcb.20 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2014 05:40:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.52.22.105 with SMTP id c9mr6552350vdf.57.1393076443268; Sat, 22 Feb 2014 05:40:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.221.72.74 with HTTP; Sat, 22 Feb 2014 05:40:42 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <52F26B9E.2090001@gmx.de> <5e023b9a-515c-432b-a389-8f9af4766b51@googlegroups.com> <52F29ED8.1050607@gmx.de> <372dd8f1-1920-4afa-8d11-aa55696982a0@googlegroups.com> <03555bbd-cc44-426f-94ee-65d557f2d301@googlegroups.com> <592497c0-5db5-420e-867f-8df1663eca27@googlegroups.com> <52F65A5C.90605@gmx.de> <348c23bf-6d9f-4a05-bfe7-69b141c03cb7@googlegroups.com> <52F776EE.6070406@gmx.de> <6ffd64d2-2e2c-4b83-8722-b7f262f5837a@googlegroups.com> <52F7A4D5.5070106@gmx.de> <56096dec-1969-420d-b4e5-b8539cbe0cc0@googlegroups.com> <52F8FAA2.9030009@gmx.de> <52FE053C.3000604@gmx.de> <1e6d5917-ad1e-4c5b-abb7-5deb92110b83@googlegroups.com> <68bacba4-a957-481c-ba00-211db2de8dc3@googlegroups.com> <2f4f0766-1f52-46f0-80af-b4de86d9b5bd@googlegroups.com> <618e6524-d7f0-46c9-8d0b-bbee2dd0cd41@googlegroups.com> <36c4c2b2-8f8c-4d44-ac8e-48c02d45a233@googlegroups.com> <4b6b2cb9-51e5-47f6-97a9-2dec16406864@googlegroups.com> Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 10:40:42 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Individuals and xorlo From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22f as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf307ca0e88bcbb404f2fee220 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --20cf307ca0e88bcbb404f2fee220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sat, Feb 22, 2014 at 5:02 AM, guskant wrote: > >> Because {su'o mei} is neither a sequence of logical elements, nor > expanded to a sequence of logical elements, a sentence including {su'o mei} > itself cannot be a logical axiom or the equivalent. I call a sentence > "tautology" only when it is expressed with a sequence of logical elements > that is a logical axiom or the equivalent. > But we _are_ defining "su'o mei" (as well as all the other "su'o N mei" and "N mei") as logical elements! That's the whole point of what we're doing, isn't it? Why would you want to give "su'o mei" different meanings in differnet contexts? "su'o mei" is just the tautological predicate. It has nothing to do with whether or not there are individuals. It is true of anything at all. Any of them are fine. (D1-1) is only a "one-shot" definition of a > particular ko'a in a particular universe of discourse defined by a speaker. > It is not for general use. > But what does D1 even mean if you only know what "su'o mei" means when applied to a particular ko'a? According to D1 ko'a su'o re mei := su'o da poi me ko'a su'o de poi me ko'a zo'u ge da su'o mei gi nai de me da How is that a complete definition of "ko'a su'o re mei", when there is an undefined term on the right hand side? In all my definitions "ko'a" was intended as a place holder. They otherwise don't make sense as definitions of the predicates. > Even with (D1-1b), "mi jo'u do su'o pa mei" is true. > > (D1-1b) is also a "one-shot" definition defined by a speaker on a > particular ko'a that is an individual, and is not applied generally. > It gives a meaning to {su'o pa mei} with a particular ko'a. > > For example, suppose a speaker applies (D1-1b) to {mi}: > (D1-1b) mi su'o pa mei := su'oi da poi me mi ku'o ro'oi de poi me mi zo'u > de me da ije da me de > Then {mi jo'u do} satisfies (D1) of N=2: > mi jo'u do su'o re mei > > From (D1), > ganai ko'a su'o N mei gi ko'a su'o N-1 mei > is always true. > > (proof: > I didn't check your proof in detail, but it seems to me you must be be relying on D1-1, not just on D1. Otherwise both "su'o N mei" and "su'o N-1 mei" are undefined. With D1-1b in effect, the statement is false. From "mi jo'u do su'o re mei" we cannot conclude "mi jo'u do su'o pa mei" if "D1-1b" applies to "mi jo'u do". > Therefore > mi jo'u do su'o pa mei > is also true. > As long as D1-1b applies only to "mi", and D1-1 applies to "mi jo'u do", yes. But why would you use different definitions of "su'o mei" in the same context? For example, suppose that a speaker regards {lo nanba} is non-individual: > ro'oi da poi me lo nanba ku'o su'oi de poi me lo nanba zo'u de me da > ijenai da me de > > That is, the speaker regards a half of {lo nanba} is also {me lo nanba}. > Yes. > Even though there is no individual {lo nanba}, an expression {N mei} is > available with (D1-7) (D1) (D2) (D3). > No: "lo nanba cu su'o pa mei" is true "lo nanba cu su'o re mei" is true "lo nanba cu su'o ci mei" is true and so on, but: "lo nanba cu pa mei" = "lo nanba cu su'o pa mei gi'e nai su'o re mei" is false "lo nanba cu re mei" = "lo nanba cu su'o re mei gi'e nai su'o ci mei" is false and so on. "lo nanba cu su'o N mei" is true for all N, while "lo nanba cu N mei" is false for all (finite) N. > The speaker arbitrarily fix a referent to be {lo pa nanba}. If another {lo > nanba xi re} is given, {lo pa nanba jo'u lo nanba xi re} is {lo re nanba}. > If "lo pa nanba" satisfies D1-1 and D1 and it also satisfies "ro'oi da poi me lo pa nanba ku'o su'oi de poi me lo pa nanba zo'u de me da ijenai da me de", then it cannot satisfy D2. mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --20cf307ca0e88bcbb404f2fee220 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sat, Feb 22, 2014 at 5:02 AM, guskant=A0<gusni.kan= tu@gmail.com>=A0wrote:

Because {su'o mei} is neither a sequence of logical elements= , nor expanded to a sequence of logical elements, a sentence including {su&= #39;o mei} itself cannot be a logical axiom or the equivalent. I call a sen= tence "tautology" only when it is expressed with a sequence of lo= gical elements that is a logical axiom or the equivalent.=A0

But we _are_ defining "su'o= mei" (as well as all the other "su'o N mei" and "N= mei") as logical elements! That's the whole point of what we'= re doing, isn't it? Why would you want to give "su'o mei"= different meanings in differnet contexts?
=A0
"su'o mei" is just the tautological pr= edicate. It has nothing to do with whether or not there are individuals. It= is true of anything at all.

Any of them are fine. (D1-1) is only a &qu= ot;one-shot" definition of a particular ko'a in a particular unive= rse of discourse defined by a speaker. It is not for general use.

But what does D1 even mean if you only kno= w what "su'o mei" means when applied to a particular ko'a= ? According to D1

ko'a su'o re mei :=3D su= 'o da poi me ko'a su'o de poi me ko'a zo'u ge da su'= ;o mei gi nai de me da

How is that a complete definition of "ko'a su&= #39;o re mei", when there is an undefined term on the right hand side?= =A0

In all my definitions "ko'a" was intended as a place hol= der. They otherwise don't make sense as definitions of the predicates.<= /div>
=A0
Even with (D1-1b), "mi jo'u do su'o pa m= ei" is true.

(D1-1b) is also a "one-shot= " definition defined by a speaker on a particular ko'a that is an = individual, and is not applied generally.=A0
It gives a meaning to {su'o pa mei} with a particular ko'a.

For example, suppose a speaker applies (D1-1b) to {m= i}:
(D1-1b) mi su'o pa mei :=3D su'oi da poi me mi ku'= ;o ro'oi de poi me mi zo'u de me da ije da me de
Then {mi jo'u do} satisfies=A0(D1) of N=3D2:
mi jo'u= do su'o re mei

From (D1),=A0
ganai = ko'a su'o N mei gi ko'a su'o N-1 mei
is always tr= ue.=A0

(p= roof:

I didn't check your proof in det= ail, but it seems to me you must be be relying on D1-1, not just on D1. Oth= erwise both "su'o N mei" and "su'o N-1 mei" are= undefined. With D1-1b in effect, the statement is false. From "mi jo&= #39;u do su'o re mei" we cannot conclude "mi jo'u do su&#= 39;o pa mei" if "D1-1b" applies to "mi jo'u do"= ;.
=A0
Therefore=A0
mi jo'u do su'o pa mei
is also true.

As long as D1-1b applies only to "m= i", and D1-1 applies to "mi jo'u do", yes. But why would= you use different definitions of "su'o mei" in the same cont= ext?


=A0 =A0 For example, suppose that a spea= ker regards {lo nanba} is non-individual:
ro'oi da poi me lo nanba ku'o su'oi de po= i me lo nanba zo'u de me da ijenai da me de

Th= at is, the speaker regards a half of {lo nanba} is also {me lo nanba}.=A0

Yes.
=A0
Even though there is no individual {lo nanba}, an exp= ression {N mei} is available with (D1-7) (D1) (D2) (D3).

No:

"lo nanba cu su= 'o pa mei" is true
"lo nanba cu su'o re mei" is true
"lo nan= ba cu su'o ci mei" is true

and so on, but= :

"lo nanba cu pa mei"=A0
=3D = "lo nanba cu su'o pa mei gi'e nai su'o re mei" is fal= se

"lo nanba cu re mei"
=3D "lo n= anba cu su'o re mei gi'e nai su'o ci mei" is false

and so on. "lo nanba cu su'o N mei" is true= for all N, while "lo nanba cu N mei" is false for all (finite) N= .
=A0
The speaker arbitraril= y fix a referent to be {lo pa nanba}. If another {lo nanba xi re} is given,= {lo pa nanba jo'u lo nanba xi re} is {lo re nanba}.

If "lo pa nanba" satisfies= D1-1 and D1 and it also satisfies "ro'oi da poi me lo pa nanba ku= 'o su'oi de poi me lo pa nanba zo'u de me da ijenai da me de&qu= ot;, then it cannot satisfy D2.=A0

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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