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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 19:52:03 -0700
Message-ID: <CAMKwHj0FRK5QBkCth-gsvoWVCbqgm9UV19eO9ttzVQNnHeJv5A@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] {berti} - "to the north" or "northern side"?
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
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{lo cmene sinxa cu berti lo dinju}
"The nameplate is on the northern side of the building.


On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 5:01 PM, Wuzzy <almikes@aol.com> wrote:

> Am Thu, 27 Feb 2014 13:53:25 +0400
> schrieb Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>:
>
> > {berti} = x1 is to the north/northern side [right-hand-rule pole] of
> > x2 according to frame of reference x3.
> >
> > I think this is polysemous. {lo gusta cu berti lo tcadu mi} with me
> > standing in the center of the city - does it mean that the restaurant
> > is to the north of the city and outside the city or it is in the
> > northern part of the city and thus within the borders of the city?
> >
>
> First: How can you be a frame of reference? I think the frame of
> reference would be the Earth (or a simplified model, like WGS-84). So
> your sentence seems nonsensical to me.
>
> But still: This definition is indeed ambigious. It looks even
> intentional, since the ambigiouty is introduced EXPLICITLY.
> Actually, a lot of gismu are. I heard this was made in order to give
> more freedom for lujvo.
>
> Here's an example: {badna}. Banana. Either the fruit OR the
> plant. So in jbovlaste I created new lujvo for
> disambiguation: "badnygrute" (banana, the fruit) and
> "badnyspa" (banana, the plant).
>
> With the definition "x1 is north of x2 according to frame of reference
> x3" I can live when x1 and x2 are two points.
> But what does "x1 is to the northern side of x2 according to frame of
> reference x3" even mean? How do you know something is "the northern"
> side of something? You would have to put an imaginary border somewhere,
> where the "northern side" ends.
>
> I think the problem with berti could be solved with more lujvo. I
> wonder how these lujvo should look like ...
>
> --
> Wuzzy
>
> --
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>


-- 
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>{lo cmene sinxa cu berti lo dinju}<br></div></di=
v>&quot;The nameplate is on the northern side of the building.<br></div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 27, =
2014 at 5:01 PM, Wuzzy <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:almikes@aol.=
com" target=3D"_blank">almikes@aol.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Am Thu, 27 Feb 2014 13:53:25 +0400<br>
schrieb Gleki Arxokuna &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com">gl=
eki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br>
<div class=3D""><br>
&gt; {berti} =3D x1 is to the north/northern side [right-hand-rule pole] of=
<br>
&gt; x2 according to frame of reference x3.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I think this is polysemous. {lo gusta cu berti lo tcadu mi} with me<br=
>
&gt; standing in the center of the city - does it mean that the restaurant<=
br>
&gt; is to the north of the city and outside the city or it is in the<br>
&gt; northern part of the city and thus within the borders of the city?<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
</div>First: How can you be a frame of reference? I think the frame of<br>
reference would be the Earth (or a simplified model, like WGS-84). So<br>
your sentence seems nonsensical to me.<br>
<br>
But still: This definition is indeed ambigious. It looks even<br>
intentional, since the ambigiouty is introduced EXPLICITLY.<br>
Actually, a lot of gismu are. I heard this was made in order to give<br>
more freedom for lujvo.<br>
<br>
Here&rsquo;s an example: {badna}. Banana. Either the fruit OR the<br>
plant. So in jbovlaste I created new lujvo for<br>
disambiguation: &ldquo;badnygrute&rdquo; (banana, the fruit) and<br>
&ldquo;badnyspa&rdquo; (banana, the plant).<br>
<br>
With the definition &ldquo;x1 is north of x2 according to frame of referenc=
e<br>
x3&rdquo; I can live when x1 and x2 are two points.<br>
But what does &ldquo;x1 is to the northern side of x2 according to frame of=
<br>
reference x3&rdquo; even mean? How do you know something is &ldquo;the nort=
hern&rdquo;<br>
side of something? You would have to put an imaginary border somewhere,<br>
where the &ldquo;northern side&rdquo; ends.<br>
<br>
I think the problem with berti could be solved with more lujvo. I<br>
wonder how these lujvo should look like &hellip;<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
--<br>
Wuzzy<br>
</font></span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi=
&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l=
uk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. =
:D )<br>

</div>

<p></p>

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