Received: from mail-vc0-f185.google.com ([209.85.220.185]:59601) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WJOR5-00066F-UT for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 06:29:22 -0800 Received: by mail-vc0-f185.google.com with SMTP id le5sf183190vcb.22 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 06:29:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ZxVU42lfbW6EiQTv+TF001iiQ1Q6GVM8dXo06UyQcKo=; b=Eq8aB0xEsFpXmyfxDGo6SVQ3StDj+QMar0UNCAaIOeRLXMpqQ772eN9ufg3+359vzW zsBMzrZkdT22Lk5hnlELR5lwNaTHJDZzddqVyRQiteJWiTi4j4JVECwzW1HL81YMrlOQ j9eogkPBRhK4TFjqBsGcLA2PVMK4SKDrd0qdI2IJnulDNNFqCxssjC6ZFGFor099X+Cj 0HEK4p/J5P1ZbWH9YPaeWteH1o0Gu7TI/1Fcg6QoTitB/2k09MHz0YFiujioDueus+yE 2N5BkAP8C506IP5+MdYar3Eq14IWE2VYQdlwMLxCp6pjw6aCosZIZLBs/yc9yXMSqof7 4c2w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ZxVU42lfbW6EiQTv+TF001iiQ1Q6GVM8dXo06UyQcKo=; b=qOQcv91ADmBw+K4OLy2fNpumO+8Wjz+bvxImpiV/m4DbFA1oSm9Y79frPhvp0vwVKp SwlbnNjC+7k7+i5BATtg4tbbCukg2ZPth8hm37qEPzaZ0YCOjPBCtNvbDfyZyeyN25HH E08IOCdSYlC2E3f3g5sJk9o8q1wl02YB1oeD1wzH48ehX/qtipy7UZCqb+hICjlqrPJ3 gleCwnRcWBW76mxPTEv0HLI9QCeniSMFs0RrCgodihudp5mdtBK+wbngLs0UM6I+oUu7 eBJAbiaJcGLEG07kMyyxONv+0JOdxDjoEKL2rxICZoAis5IO7XnlWv0v0UB32XxnvmPo HVvw== X-Received: by 10.140.102.35 with SMTP id v32mr5578qge.26.1393597745453; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 06:29:05 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.101.70 with SMTP id t64ls1118542qge.1.gmail; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 06:29:05 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.140.25.242 with SMTP id 105mr54892qgt.8.1393597745100; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 06:29:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 06:29:04 -0800 (PST) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <4ea4dd91-ca95-4548-b869-6d5abf8fef53@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20140228010100.36c22a95@aol.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] {berti} - "to the north" or "northern side"? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_658_13568992.1393597744427" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_658_13568992.1393597744427 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Friday, February 28, 2014 6:52:03 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote: > > {lo cmene sinxa cu berti lo dinju} > "The nameplate is on the northern side of the building. > Or "The nameplate is to the north of the building"?=20 > > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 5:01 PM, Wuzzy >wrot= e: > >> Am Thu, 27 Feb 2014 13:53:25 +0400 >> schrieb Gleki Arxokuna >: >> >> > {berti} =3D x1 is to the north/northern side [right-hand-rule pole] of >> > x2 according to frame of reference x3. >> > >> > I think this is polysemous. {lo gusta cu berti lo tcadu mi} with me >> > standing in the center of the city - does it mean that the restaurant >> > is to the north of the city and outside the city or it is in the >> > northern part of the city and thus within the borders of the city? >> > >> >> First: How can you be a frame of reference? I think the frame of >> reference would be the Earth (or a simplified model, like WGS-84). So >> your sentence seems nonsensical to me. >> >> But still: This definition is indeed ambigious. It looks even >> intentional, since the ambigiouty is introduced EXPLICITLY. >> Actually, a lot of gismu are. I heard this was made in order to give >> more freedom for lujvo. >> >> Here=E2=80=99s an example: {badna}. Banana. Either the fruit OR the >> plant. So in jbovlaste I created new lujvo for >> disambiguation: =E2=80=9Cbadnygrute=E2=80=9D (banana, the fruit) and >> =E2=80=9Cbadnyspa=E2=80=9D (banana, the plant). >> >> With the definition =E2=80=9Cx1 is north of x2 according to frame of ref= erence >> x3=E2=80=9D I can live when x1 and x2 are two points. >> But what does =E2=80=9Cx1 is to the northern side of x2 according to fra= me of >> reference x3=E2=80=9D even mean? How do you know something is =E2=80=9Ct= he northern=E2=80=9D >> side of something? You would have to put an imaginary border somewhere, >> where the =E2=80=9Cnorthern side=E2=80=9D ends. >> >> I think the problem with berti could be solved with more lujvo. I >> wonder how these lujvo should look like =E2=80=A6 >> >> -- >> Wuzzy >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s=20 >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n=20 >> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com >> . >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > > > --=20 > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_658_13568992.1393597744427 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Friday, February 28, 2014 6:52:03 AM UTC+4, aio= nys wrote:
{lo cmene sinxa cu berti lo dinju}
"The nameplate is = on the northern side of the building.

=
Or "The nameplate is to the north of the building"? 


<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 5:01 PM, Wuzzy <alm...@aol.com> wrote:
Am Thu, 27 Feb 2014 13:53:25 +0400
schrieb Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is...= @gmail.com>:

> {berti} =3D x1 is to the north/northern side [right-hand-rule pole] of=
> x2 according to frame of reference x3.
>
> I think this is polysemous. {lo gusta cu berti lo tcadu mi} with me > standing in the center of the city - does it mean that the restaurant<= br> > is to the north of the city and outside the city or it is in the
> northern part of the city and thus within the borders of the city?
>

First: How can you be a frame of reference? I think the frame of
reference would be the Earth (or a simplified model, like WGS-84). So
your sentence seems nonsensical to me.

But still: This definition is indeed ambigious. It looks even
intentional, since the ambigiouty is introduced EXPLICITLY.
Actually, a lot of gismu are. I heard this was made in order to give
more freedom for lujvo.

Here=E2=80=99s an example: {badna}. Banana. Either the fruit OR the
plant. So in jbovlaste I created new lujvo for
disambiguation: =E2=80=9Cbadnygrute=E2=80=9D (banana, the fruit) and
=E2=80=9Cbadnyspa=E2=80=9D (banana, the plant).

With the definition =E2=80=9Cx1 is north of x2 according to frame of refere= nce
x3=E2=80=9D I can live when x1 and x2 are two points.
But what does =E2=80=9Cx1 is to the northern side of x2 according to frame = of
reference x3=E2=80=9D even mean? How do you know something is =E2=80=9Cthe = northern=E2=80=9D
side of something? You would have to put an imaginary border somewhere,
where the =E2=80=9Cnorthern side=E2=80=9D ends.

I think the problem with berti could be solved with more lujvo. I
wonder how these lujvo should look like =E2=80=A6

--
Wuzzy

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups= .com.
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt= _out.



--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
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