Received: from mail-vc0-f185.google.com ([209.85.220.185]:56485) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WJOnh-0006c8-N5 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 06:52:40 -0800 Received: by mail-vc0-f185.google.com with SMTP id le5sf189967vcb.22 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 06:52:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=dpf3BF6BsUFoFgN+IZ3GTP7em1bC1UGyPGctuAGChGk=; b=fhoyEMRtTHjrHJR9Q4FWkl1ZMmf+778Yh3G4IkC1S32iOjLo+5nIgyFwvCM/gni+9K FQrmmvv5YThOavyAk99j2EaQPnFk1BzkaQA9ze7xo1hD4lTVa44RWb2SIr9knFtVFNTN 3x/mOCTidZTc/uc79TcV71o8Q4tBzyT2CshP/7LrjwyE0cwU48H/XG2RWvuHCx4DS7ht gkohO8Ixa1d5qFgGyt0ybnBT7QvrBimY4watXDflA/zs2/u0yQy8js4TB/s4+ClFss44 wiAJLfkV97SUJfZxpzUREkQ/yS4cQao7/H5FL2fBuXTHbApyL5B9Yn4W4voeDCyANAXu DymQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=dpf3BF6BsUFoFgN+IZ3GTP7em1bC1UGyPGctuAGChGk=; b=sb1w/sP/c3fI2DUt0yhAFvYxIGPXRQP5ruz3wHqmoFa4QXE3ldxIvgf+twkfo/6ncy xXGHkq2The1wfPeNx++mRLBT0cvHkOju3h/t53NsPV9veDIYB1TzFaGAAIFr3qNQD2GB bRijz3fy1c9HUFdczl/EHNcN73tDwnnNdD86r9JJA8m/kjfVQx+gYRtOr+9EdVLff0zo QCNF+3rcFh4eUpkLkI78o8SFCXFhwwBeaJ76oy5ep+3wOsiKtm3XqCK88C7exqfNtbCW NolVXEGSK1MF2djdCCigcnznMo2lEf105p7os+A7B+oeM+1mRg0NjaVEd+NwfuYV9P7l bCCw== X-Received: by 10.182.213.41 with SMTP id np9mr119086obc.3.1393599146960; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 06:52:26 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.181.6 with SMTP id ds6ls513486obc.77.gmail; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 06:52:26 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.182.60.228 with SMTP id k4mr5338obr.35.1393599146449; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 06:52:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 06:52:25 -0800 (PST) From: la xirsoi To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4ea4dd91-ca95-4548-b869-6d5abf8fef53@googlegroups.com> References: <20140228010100.36c22a95@aol.com> <4ea4dd91-ca95-4548-b869-6d5abf8fef53@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] {berti} - "to the north" or "northern side"? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: chevalieradam2@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_25_27388237.1393599145876" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_25_27388237.1393599145876 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think that it would be up to context, like so much of Lojban. So, in the case of {lo cmene sinxa cu berti lo dinju}, it would be "The nameplate is on the northern side of the building." On Friday, February 28, 2014 8:29:04 AM UTC-6, la gleki wrote: > > > > On Friday, February 28, 2014 6:52:03 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote: >> >> {lo cmene sinxa cu berti lo dinju} >> "The nameplate is on the northern side of the building. >> > > Or "The nameplate is to the north of the building"?=20 > >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 5:01 PM, Wuzzy wrote: >> >>> Am Thu, 27 Feb 2014 13:53:25 +0400 >>> schrieb Gleki Arxokuna : >>> >>> > {berti} =3D x1 is to the north/northern side [right-hand-rule pole] o= f >>> > x2 according to frame of reference x3. >>> > >>> > I think this is polysemous. {lo gusta cu berti lo tcadu mi} with me >>> > standing in the center of the city - does it mean that the restaurant >>> > is to the north of the city and outside the city or it is in the >>> > northern part of the city and thus within the borders of the city? >>> > >>> >>> First: How can you be a frame of reference? I think the frame of >>> reference would be the Earth (or a simplified model, like WGS-84). So >>> your sentence seems nonsensical to me. >>> >>> But still: This definition is indeed ambigious. It looks even >>> intentional, since the ambigiouty is introduced EXPLICITLY. >>> Actually, a lot of gismu are. I heard this was made in order to give >>> more freedom for lujvo. >>> >>> Here=E2=80=99s an example: {badna}. Banana. Either the fruit OR the >>> plant. So in jbovlaste I created new lujvo for >>> disambiguation: =E2=80=9Cbadnygrute=E2=80=9D (banana, the fruit) and >>> =E2=80=9Cbadnyspa=E2=80=9D (banana, the plant). >>> >>> With the definition =E2=80=9Cx1 is north of x2 according to frame of re= ference >>> x3=E2=80=9D I can live when x1 and x2 are two points. >>> But what does =E2=80=9Cx1 is to the northern side of x2 according to fr= ame of >>> reference x3=E2=80=9D even mean? How do you know something is =E2=80=9C= the northern=E2=80=9D >>> side of something? You would have to put an imaginary border somewhere, >>> where the =E2=80=9Cnorthern side=E2=80=9D ends. >>> >>> I think the problem with berti could be solved with more lujvo. I >>> wonder how these lujvo should look like =E2=80=A6 >>> >>> -- >>> Wuzzy >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=20 >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= =20 >>> an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >> >> >> >> --=20 >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> =20 > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_25_27388237.1393599145876 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think that it would be up to context, like so much of Lo= jban.
So, in the case of {lo cmene sinxa cu berti lo dinju}, it would b= e
"The nameplate is on the northern side of the building."
On Friday, February 28, 2014 8:29:04 AM UTC-6, la gleki wrote:


On Friday, Februa= ry 28, 2014 6:52:03 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
{lo cmene sinxa cu berti lo dinju}
"The nameplate is on the northern side of the building.
=

Or "The nameplate is to the north of the b= uilding"? 


On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 5:= 01 PM, Wuzzy <alm...@aol.com> wrote:<= br>
Am Thu, 27 Feb 2014 13:53:25 +0400
schrieb Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com>:

> {berti} =3D x1 is to the north/northern side [right-hand-rule pole] of=
> x2 according to frame of reference x3.
>
> I think this is polysemous. {lo gusta cu berti lo tcadu mi} with me > standing in the center of the city - does it mean that the restaurant<= br> > is to the north of the city and outside the city or it is in the
> northern part of the city and thus within the borders of the city?
>

First: How can you be a frame of reference? I think the frame of
reference would be the Earth (or a simplified model, like WGS-84). So
your sentence seems nonsensical to me.

But still: This definition is indeed ambigious. It looks even
intentional, since the ambigiouty is introduced EXPLICITLY.
Actually, a lot of gismu are. I heard this was made in order to give
more freedom for lujvo.

Here=E2=80=99s an example: {badna}. Banana. Either the fruit OR the
plant. So in jbovlaste I created new lujvo for
disambiguation: =E2=80=9Cbadnygrute=E2=80=9D (banana, the fruit) and
=E2=80=9Cbadnyspa=E2=80=9D (banana, the plant).

With the definition =E2=80=9Cx1 is north of x2 according to frame of refere= nce
x3=E2=80=9D I can live when x1 and x2 are two points.
But what does =E2=80=9Cx1 is to the northern side of x2 according to frame = of
reference x3=E2=80=9D even mean? How do you know something is =E2=80=9Cthe = northern=E2=80=9D
side of something? You would have to put an imaginary border somewhere,
where the =E2=80=9Cnorthern side=E2=80=9D ends.

I think the problem with berti could be solved with more lujvo. I
wonder how these lujvo should look like =E2=80=A6

--
Wuzzy

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt= _out.



--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
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