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Subject: Re: [lojban] Translating the Bible
References: <1643618.rLEZhvptIB@caracal> <5AB907BD-D396-4340-8851-9BE4B30BC432@gmail.com> <4135353.JHmNsxIZkQ@caracal>
From: Sebastian <seb@lojban.se>
In-Reply-To: <4135353.JHmNsxIZkQ@caracal>
Message-Id: <F75BD6E3-8EE1-4681-8357-511D9B3C9AB6@lojban.se>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 22:08:53 +0100
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Ok, nice.=20
So I think the first thing to decide is what perspective we would like to h=
ave when we're interpreting/translating the Bible.=20
Every kind of church have their own opinion about how to interpret differen=
t things, and they translate in accordance with their own beliefs.
The Bible is also probably the most quoted work in the history. What's the =
impact if the lojbanic community later is translating works where the Bible=
 is quoted? Which version does the work in that case refer to? How have Bib=
lical concepts developed historically? How does people now and in the past =
understand these concepts? I'm just saying that if we're constructing new l=
ujvos and fu'ivlas for important concepts in the Bible, that's quite normat=
ive, is representing just a certain point of view and might influence later=
 lojbanic translations.
Should we even call our translation the Bible? Shouldn't we recognize it's =
origin and pay more attention to the Jewish Tradition, and consider the Tan=
akh (Old Testament) as a work separated from the New Testament?
And how do we reason when tertau, single brivla or whole phrases/sentences =
are meant to be interpreted metaphorically? Do we have to mark every metaph=
orical construction with {pe'a}? Or what about idiomatic expressions/"dead =
metaphors"?
I think our translation should be close to how the work was interpreted at =
the time it was written. And I think we should translate expressions like "=
the ones who urinate on the wall" as {ro le prenu poi pincyvi'i re'o [?] lo=
 bitmu} or similar rather than {ro nanmu} even if this might offend some Ch=
ristians.
Ok, I just think we should think about things like this before starting the=
 translation process. What's the purpose. To be a literal translation of an=
 important historical literal work and/or to be a lojbanic version of the c=
anonical text of some religion or something else?
Just think about it.
/Sebastian


Skickat fr=C3=A5n min iPhone

> 27 mar 2014 kl. 17:46 skrev Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org>:
>=20
>> On Thursday, March 27, 2014 16:58:02 Sebastian wrote:
>> Hi,
>> translating the Bible would be awesome. I don't have much time though, b=
ut I
>> might be able to help a little here and there, commenting stuff. What
>> degree of ambitions are we talking about here? It took a group of
>> professional linguistics, biblical experts and representatives of variou=
s
>> religious organizations around 20 years to complete a translation of the
>> Bible into Swedish (Bible 2000-version). So what's the ambition and
>> competence in this project. Does anyone have at least basic knowledge of
>> Biblical Hebrew and of the Biblical Contexts? I'm interested and have
>> studied some Religion at the university here in Sweden, but I don't have
>> knowledge about Biblical Hebrew. /seb
>=20
> If you could translate sections and review sections others have translate=
d,=20
> that would be great. Don't expect more than first draft quality until a l=
ot of=20
> the Bible has been translated. If you can translate a passage from a few=
=20
> translations, that would be better than no translation at all.
>=20
> I know New Testament Greek fairly well but sometimes run into a word I'm =
not=20
> sure how to translate. I know a little bit of Hebrew, but Mark Shoulson i=
s=20
> better at it (not to mention Welsh and Klingon). I also have the NT in=20
> Aramaic; some words are familiar from Hebrew, others aren't. Half of Dani=
el is=20
> in Aramaic. The language changed from Daniel to the NT, but it's recogniz=
ably=20
> the same language, and even in Daniel there are some borrowings from Gree=
k=20
> (sumponya, psanterin).
>=20
> Pierre
> --=20
> li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa
>=20
> --=20
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=
=3Dutf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Ok, nice.&nbsp;</div><div>So I thi=
nk the first thing to decide is what perspective we would like to have when=
 we're interpreting/translating the Bible.&nbsp;</div><div>Every kind of ch=
urch have their own opinion about how to interpret different things, and th=
ey translate in accordance with their own beliefs.</div><div>The Bible is a=
lso probably the most quoted work in the history. What's the impact if the =
lojbanic community later is translating works where the Bible is quoted? Wh=
ich version does the work in that case refer to? How have Biblical concepts=
 developed historically? How does people now and in the past understand the=
se concepts? I'm just saying that if we're constructing new lujvos and fu'i=
vlas for important concepts in the Bible, that's quite normative, is repres=
enting just a certain point of view and might influence later lojbanic tran=
slations.</div><div>Should we even call our translation the Bible? Shouldn'=
t we recognize it's origin and pay more attention to the Jewish Tradition, =
and consider the Tanakh (Old Testament) as a work separated from the New Te=
stament?</div><div>And how do we reason when tertau, single brivla or whole=
 phrases/sentences are meant to be interpreted metaphorically? Do we have t=
o mark <i>every</i> metaphorical construction with {pe'a}? Or what about id=
iomatic expressions/"dead metaphors"?</div><div>I think our translation sho=
uld be close to how the work was interpreted at the time it was written. An=
d I think we should translate expressions like "the ones who urinate on the=
 wall" as {ro le prenu poi pincyvi'i re'o [?] lo bitmu} or similar rather t=
han {ro nanmu} even if this might offend some Christians.</div><div>Ok, I j=
ust think we should think about things like this before starting the transl=
ation process. What's the purpose. To be a literal translation of an import=
ant historical literal work and/or to be a lojbanic version of the canonica=
l text of some religion or something else?</div><div>Just think about it.</=
div><div>/Sebastian</div><div><br></div><div><br>Skickat fr=C3=A5n min iPho=
ne</div><div><br>27 mar 2014 kl. 17:46 skrev Pierre Abbat &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:phma@bezitopo.org">phma@bezitopo.org</a>&gt;:<br><br></div><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite"><div><span>On Thursday, March 27, 2014 16:58:02 Sebastian wr=
ote:</span><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>Hi,</span><br></blockquote><=
blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>translating the Bible would be awesome. I do=
n't have much time though, but I</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><span>might be able to help a little here and there, commenting stuf=
f. What</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>degree of am=
bitions are we talking about here? It took a group of</span><br></blockquot=
e><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>professional linguistics, biblical expert=
s and representatives of various</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><span>religious organizations around 20 years to complete a translat=
ion of the</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>Bible int=
o Swedish (Bible 2000-version). So what's the ambition and</span><br></bloc=
kquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>competence in this project. Does any=
one have at least basic knowledge of</span><br></blockquote><blockquote typ=
e=3D"cite"><span>Biblical Hebrew and of the Biblical Contexts? I'm interest=
ed and have</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>studied =
some Religion at the university here in Sweden, but I don't have</span><br>=
</blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>knowledge about Biblical Hebre=
w. /seb</span><br></blockquote><span></span><br><span>If you could translat=
e sections and review sections others have translated, </span><br><span>tha=
t would be great. Don't expect more than first draft quality until a lot of=
 </span><br><span>the Bible has been translated. If you can translate a pas=
sage from a few </span><br><span>translations, that would be better than no=
 translation at all.</span><br><span></span><br><span>I know New Testament =
Greek fairly well but sometimes run into a word I'm not </span><br><span>su=
re how to translate. I know a little bit of Hebrew, but Mark Shoulson is </=
span><br><span>better at it (not to mention Welsh and Klingon). I also have=
 the NT in </span><br><span>Aramaic; some words are familiar from Hebrew, o=
thers aren't. Half of Daniel is </span><br><span>in Aramaic. The language c=
hanged from Daniel to the NT, but it's recognizably </span><br><span>the sa=
me language, and even in Daniel there are some borrowings from Greek </span=
><br><span>(sumponya, psanterin).</span><br><span></span><br><span>Pierre</=
span><br><span>-- </span><br><span>li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa</span><b=
r><span></span><br><span>-- </span><br><span>You received this message beca=
use you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.</span><br><span=
>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an =
email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsu=
bscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.</span><br><span>To post to this group, send e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com">lojban@googlegroups.com<=
/a>.</span><br><span>Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.co=
m/group/lojban">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.</span><br><span>=
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.</span><br></div></blockquote></body></h=
tml>

<p></p>

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