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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 10:38:44 +0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Translating the Bible
From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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*Metaphors.*
There are  lot of metaphors. The answer might be the following:

if we are to make Lojban the primary meta-language for machine translation
on this planet then we must have two styles:
1. Lojban as a *meta-language*. The translation *must* be super-bulky,
every metaphor *must* be marked with {pe'a} BUT it *must* be clearly shown
that this {pe'a} was added by translators, not by the Bible itself ({to'i
pe'a toi}???).
2. There must be a script that would cut away certain constructs that are
not so necessary for reading by humans.

What is more #2. must allow of generating different styles of the output
Lojban:
2.1 Chinese style would cut away tenses but retain event contours.
2.2 Russian style would retain both
For most languages {to'i pe'a toi} would be converted to simple {pe'a} or
deleted completely.
*Religion*
I suggest paying more attention to Jewish tradition.
The name of the Lord wouldn't be translated in 1. (la'oi + tetragrammaton)
but would be translated according to each tradition for each translation.


2014-03-28 1:08 GMT+04:00 Sebastian <seb@lojban.se>:

> Ok, nice.
> So I think the first thing to decide is what perspective we would like to
> have when we're interpreting/translating the Bible.
> Every kind of church have their own opinion about how to interpret
> different things, and they translate in accordance with their own beliefs=
.
> The Bible is also probably the most quoted work in the history. What's th=
e
> impact if the lojbanic community later is translating works where the Bib=
le
> is quoted? Which version does the work in that case refer to? How have
> Biblical concepts developed historically? How does people now and in the
> past understand these concepts? I'm just saying that if we're constructin=
g
> new lujvos and fu'ivlas for important concepts in the Bible, that's quite
> normative, is representing just a certain point of view and might influen=
ce
> later lojbanic translations.
> Should we even call our translation the Bible? Shouldn't we recognize it'=
s
> origin and pay more attention to the Jewish Tradition, and consider the
> Tanakh (Old Testament) as a work separated from the New Testament?
> And how do we reason when tertau, single brivla or whole phrases/sentence=
s
> are meant to be interpreted metaphorically? Do we have to mark *every*met=
aphorical construction with {pe'a}? Or what about idiomatic
> expressions/"dead metaphors"?
> I think our translation should be close to how the work was interpreted a=
t
> the time it was written. And I think we should translate expressions like
> "the ones who urinate on the wall" as {ro le prenu poi pincyvi'i re'o [?]
> lo bitmu} or similar rather than {ro nanmu} even if this might offend som=
e
> Christians.
> Ok, I just think we should think about things like this before starting
> the translation process. What's the purpose. To be a literal translation =
of
> an important historical literal work and/or to be a lojbanic version of t=
he
> canonical text of some religion or something else?
> Just think about it.
> /Sebastian
>
>
> Skickat fr=C3=A5n min iPhone
>
> 27 mar 2014 kl. 17:46 skrev Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org>:
>
> On Thursday, March 27, 2014 16:58:02 Sebastian wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> translating the Bible would be awesome. I don't have much time though, bu=
t
> I
>
> might be able to help a little here and there, commenting stuff. What
>
> degree of ambitions are we talking about here? It took a group of
>
> professional linguistics, biblical experts and representatives of various
>
> religious organizations around 20 years to complete a translation of the
>
> Bible into Swedish (Bible 2000-version). So what's the ambition and
>
> competence in this project. Does anyone have at least basic knowledge of
>
> Biblical Hebrew and of the Biblical Contexts? I'm interested and have
>
> studied some Religion at the university here in Sweden, but I don't have
>
> knowledge about Biblical Hebrew. /seb
>
>
> If you could translate sections and review sections others have
> translated,
> that would be great. Don't expect more than first draft quality until a
> lot of
> the Bible has been translated. If you can translate a passage from a few
> translations, that would be better than no translation at all.
>
> I know New Testament Greek fairly well but sometimes run into a word I'm
> not
> sure how to translate. I know a little bit of Hebrew, but Mark Shoulson i=
s
> better at it (not to mention Welsh and Klingon). I also have the NT in
> Aramaic; some words are familiar from Hebrew, others aren't. Half of
> Daniel is
> in Aramaic. The language changed from Daniel to the NT, but it's
> recognizably
> the same language, and even in Daniel there are some borrowings from Gree=
k
> (sumponya, psanterin).
>
> Pierre
> --
> li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
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>
>  --
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> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><b>Metaphors.</b><br></div><div><div>There are =C2=A0=
lot of metaphors. The answer might be the following:</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>if we are to make Lojban the primary meta-language for machine translati=
on on this planet then we must have two styles:</div>
<div>1. Lojban as a <b>meta-language</b>. The translation <u>must</u> be su=
per-bulky, every metaphor <u>must</u> be marked with {pe&#39;a} BUT it <u>m=
ust</u> be clearly shown that this {pe&#39;a} was added by translators, not=
 by the Bible itself ({to&#39;i pe&#39;a toi}???).</div>
<div>2. There must be a script that would cut away certain constructs that =
are not so necessary for reading by humans.</div><div><br></div><div>What i=
s more #2. must allow of generating different styles of the output Lojban:<=
/div>
<div>2.1 Chinese style would cut away tenses but retain event contours.</di=
v><div>2.2 Russian style would retain both</div><div>For most languages {to=
&#39;i pe&#39;a toi} would be converted to simple {pe&#39;a} or deleted com=
pletely.</div>
</div><div><div><b>Religion</b></div><div>I suggest paying more attention t=
o Jewish tradition.=C2=A0</div></div><div>The name of the Lord wouldn&#39;t=
 be translated in 1. (la&#39;oi + tetragrammaton) but would be translated a=
ccording to each tradition for each translation.</div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote">2014-03-28 1:08 GMT+04:00 Sebastian <span dir=3D"ltr=
">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:seb@lojban.se" target=3D"_blank">seb@lojban.se</a>&=
gt;</span>:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Ok, nice.=C2=A0</div>=
<div>So I think the first thing to decide is what perspective we would like=
 to have when we&#39;re interpreting/translating the Bible.=C2=A0</div>
<div>Every kind of church have their own opinion about how to interpret dif=
ferent things, and they translate in accordance with their own beliefs.</di=
v><div>The Bible is also probably the most quoted work in the history. What=
&#39;s the impact if the lojbanic community later is translating works wher=
e the Bible is quoted? Which version does the work in that case refer to? H=
ow have Biblical concepts developed historically? How does people now and i=
n the past understand these concepts? I&#39;m just saying that if we&#39;re=
 constructing new lujvos and fu&#39;ivlas for important concepts in the Bib=
le, that&#39;s quite normative, is representing just a certain point of vie=
w and might influence later lojbanic translations.</div>
<div>Should we even call our translation the Bible? Shouldn&#39;t we recogn=
ize it&#39;s origin and pay more attention to the Jewish Tradition, and con=
sider the Tanakh (Old Testament) as a work separated from the New Testament=
?</div>
<div>And how do we reason when tertau, single brivla or whole phrases/sente=
nces are meant to be interpreted metaphorically? Do we have to mark <i>ever=
y</i> metaphorical construction with {pe&#39;a}? Or what about idiomatic ex=
pressions/&quot;dead metaphors&quot;?</div>
<div>I think our translation should be close to how the work was interprete=
d at the time it was written. And I think we should translate expressions l=
ike &quot;the ones who urinate on the wall&quot; as {ro le prenu poi pincyv=
i&#39;i re&#39;o [?] lo bitmu} or similar rather than {ro nanmu} even if th=
is might offend some Christians.</div>
<div>Ok, I just think we should think about things like this before startin=
g the translation process. What&#39;s the purpose. To be a literal translat=
ion of an important historical literal work and/or to be a lojbanic version=
 of the canonical text of some religion or something else?</div>
<div>Just think about it.</div><div>/Sebastian</div><div><br></div><div><br=
>Skickat fr=C3=A5n min iPhone</div><div><br>27 mar 2014 kl. 17:46 skrev Pie=
rre Abbat &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phma@bezitopo.org" target=3D"_blank">phma@b=
ezitopo.org</a>&gt;:<br>
<br></div><div><div class=3D"h5"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>On Th=
ursday, March 27, 2014 16:58:02 Sebastian wrote:</span><br><blockquote type=
=3D"cite"><span>Hi,</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>=
translating the Bible would be awesome. I don&#39;t have much time though, =
but I</span><br>
</blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>might be able to help a little=
 here and there, commenting stuff. What</span><br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><span>degree of ambitions are we talking about here? It took =
a group of</span><br>
</blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>professional linguistics, bibl=
ical experts and representatives of various</span><br></blockquote><blockqu=
ote type=3D"cite"><span>religious organizations around 20 years to complete=
 a translation of the</span><br>
</blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>Bible into Swedish (Bible 2000=
-version). So what&#39;s the ambition and</span><br></blockquote><blockquot=
e type=3D"cite"><span>competence in this project. Does anyone have at least=
 basic knowledge of</span><br>
</blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>Biblical Hebrew and of the Bib=
lical Contexts? I&#39;m interested and have</span><br></blockquote><blockqu=
ote type=3D"cite"><span>studied some Religion at the university here in Swe=
den, but I don&#39;t have</span><br>
</blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>knowledge about Biblical Hebre=
w. /seb</span><br></blockquote><span></span><br><span>If you could translat=
e sections and review sections others have translated, </span><br><span>tha=
t would be great. Don&#39;t expect more than first draft quality until a lo=
t of </span><br>
<span>the Bible has been translated. If you can translate a passage from a =
few </span><br><span>translations, that would be better than no translation=
 at all.</span><br><span></span><br><span>I know New Testament Greek fairly=
 well but sometimes run into a word I&#39;m not </span><br>
<span>sure how to translate. I know a little bit of Hebrew, but Mark Shouls=
on is </span><br><span>better at it (not to mention Welsh and Klingon). I a=
lso have the NT in </span><br><span>Aramaic; some words are familiar from H=
ebrew, others aren&#39;t. Half of Daniel is </span><br>
<span>in Aramaic. The language changed from Daniel to the NT, but it&#39;s =
recognizably </span><br><span>the same language, and even in Daniel there a=
re some borrowings from Greek </span><br><span>(sumponya, psanterin).</span=
><br>
<span></span><br><span>Pierre</span><br><span>-- </span><br><span>li fi&#39=
;u vu&#39;u fi&#39;u fi&#39;u du li pa</span><br><span></span><br><span>-- =
</span><br><span>You received this message because you are subscribed to th=
e Google Groups &quot;lojban&quot; group.</span><br>
<span>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, sen=
d an email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com" target=
=3D"_blank">lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.</span><br><span>To pos=
t to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.</span><br>
<span>Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban"=
 target=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.</span><br><sp=
an>For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.</span><br>
</div></blockquote></div></div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5=
">

<p></p>

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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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