Received: from mail-pd0-f187.google.com ([209.85.192.187]:52079) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WTRwm-00082r-8S for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 01:15:37 -0700 Received: by mail-pd0-f187.google.com with SMTP id x10sf1008728pdj.14 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 01:15:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=6kDpvFeHZx4ir/TqsftSDtlkTlavo13XxiXSUawMkZI=; b=i7nzjPyFcJSJSmfNV9VT3AGoLXm/BzCLWpCr8RF/CTwpjAIKVIf1PwTCa7Jso7Q5cR Nssq6K9bKJkgdnNCtwKLgCWy28/FoYTwkLU37DMDeEfqmniWU0C3zSkjMrAYVkQQsuBM mc+mZI23mbn6f+xxlGDHc4/4sifdOeSIaJtv0hmXo9TJeqbz9sWNUxqS0plmShNVRp1+ To2GXA0ocdX2LNgDl55umN6B+4QkmcYA5lmcyXWt2NxI1ZA8crWx4A2S6+KrzfCe539O yuHPaRDkB5NEni65voEqK55orKsBxqp8oUk7B3PV+XduqGOmWCnllJchxabaSMFAmv0X czng== X-Received: by 10.50.29.110 with SMTP id j14mr1072515igh.5.1395994520408; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 01:15:20 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.111.135 with SMTP id ii7ls275690igb.27.gmail; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 01:15:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.66.231.132 with SMTP id tg4mr1443465pac.31.1395994519950; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 01:15:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x22c.google.com (mail-qg0-x22c.google.com [2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22c]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id p5si1547578qcq.3.2014.03.28.01.15.19 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 28 Mar 2014 01:15:19 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22c as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22c; Received: by mail-qg0-f44.google.com with SMTP id a108so3974026qge.17 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 01:15:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.140.48.199 with SMTP id o65mr7312297qga.16.1395994519823; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 01:15:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.216.6 with HTTP; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 01:15:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1859267.2eCrloQ5Tp@caracal> References: <1643618.rLEZhvptIB@caracal> <1859267.2eCrloQ5Tp@caracal> Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 12:15:19 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Translating the Bible From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22c as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113517d8766c3504f5a64d6d X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --001a113517d8766c3504f5a64d6d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2014-03-28 12:11 GMT+04:00 Pierre Abbat : > On Friday, March 28, 2014 10:38:44 Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > *Metaphors.* > > There are lot of metaphors. The answer might be the following: > > > > if we are to make Lojban the primary meta-language for machine > translation > > on this planet then we must have two styles: > > 1. Lojban as a *meta-language*. The translation *must* be super-bulky, > > every metaphor *must* be marked with {pe'a} BUT it *must* be clearly > shown > > that this {pe'a} was added by translators, not by the Bible itself ({to'i > > pe'a toi}???). > > 2. There must be a script that would cut away certain constructs that are > > not so necessary for reading by humans. > > I don't see a need for a super-bulky version. I'm sure there's a markup tag > meaning "this word was inserted by the translators" somewhere in USFM. > Meta-language for machine translation, you see? This super-bulky version won't be read by humans but it'd be super-useful for further translations to other languages. > > > What is more #2. must allow of generating different styles of the output > > Lojban: > > 2.1 Chinese style would cut away tenses but retain event contours. > > 2.2 Russian style would retain both > > I see no need for this. Use whatever style seems most natural in Lojban. > > > For most languages {to'i pe'a toi} would be converted to simple {pe'a} or > > deleted completely. > > *Religion* > > I suggest paying more attention to Jewish tradition. > > The name of the Lord wouldn't be translated in 1. (la'oi + > tetragrammaton) > > but would be translated according to each tradition for each translation. > > The Name is translated as "MarYa" in Aramaic. The Peshitta NT distinguishes > "MarYa", which I intend to render as "iaves", from "Mar" or "Maran", which > I > render as "turn". ("-an" means "our".) Greek renders both as "Kurios". > > Pierre > -- > sei do'anai mi'a djuno puze'e noroi nalselganse srera > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a113517d8766c3504f5a64d6d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



2014-03-28 12:11 GMT+04:00 Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org>= :
On Friday, March 28, 2014 10:38:44 Gleki Arx= okuna wrote:
> *Metaphors.*
> There are =C2=A0lot of metaphors. The answer might be = the following:
>
> if we are to make Lojban the primary meta-language for machine transla= tion
> on this planet then we must have two styles:
> 1. Lojban as a *meta-language*. The translation *must* be super-= bulky,
> every metaphor *must* be marked with {pe'a} BUT it *must* be clear= ly shown
> that this {pe'a} was added by translators, not by = the Bible itself ({to'i
> pe'a toi}???).
> 2. There must be a script that would cut away certain constructs that = are
> not so necessary for reading by humans.

I don't see a need for a super-bulky version. I'm sure there&= #39;s a markup tag
meaning "this word was inserted by the translators" somewhere in = USFM.

Meta-language for machine transla= tion, you see? This super-bulky version won't be read by humans but it&= #39;d be super-useful for further translations to other languages.=C2=A0

> What is more #2. must allow of generating different styles of the outp= ut
> Lojban:
> 2.1 Chinese style would cut away tenses but retain event contours.
> 2.2 Russian style would retain both

I see no need for this. Use whatever style seems most natural in Lojb= an.

> For most languages {to'i pe'a toi} would be converted to simpl= e {pe'a} or
> deleted completely.
> *Religion*
> I suggest paying more attention to Jewish tradition. > The name of the Lord wouldn't be translated in 1. (la'oi + tet= ragrammaton)
> but would be translated according to each tradition for each translati= on.

The Name is translated as "MarYa" in Aramaic. The Peshitta = NT distinguishes
"MarYa", which I intend to render as "iaves", from &quo= t;Mar" or "Maran", which I
render as "turn". ("-an" means "our".) Greek = renders both as "Kurios".

Pierre
--
sei do'anai mi'a djuno puze'e noroi nalselganse srera

--
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--
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