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Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 13:43:50 -0300
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Tag compounds' semantics
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
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 Content preview:  On Sun, Apr 13, 2014 at 10:55 AM, Ilmen <ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com>
    wrote: > coi ro do, > > Is { broda ri'u vi ko'a } equivalent to { broda ri'u
    zo'e vi ko'a } or to > { broda ri'u ko'a vi ko'a }? > CLL doesn't say it
   directly, but for the example you give it would probably go with the latter,
    since for CLL the sumti complement of VA is the origin of the "imaginary
   journey", just as for FAhA, and "FAhA VA" combine to describe the same leg
    of the imaginary journey, so naturally they have the same origin. But for
    compound tenses that involve two or more FAhA, that is not the case. Each
    FAhA describes a new leg of the journey, which starts where the previous
   one left off, so they can't all share the same sumti complement as origin
   when separated. But the sumti complement of the compound will be the origin
    for the first leg of the journey, which corresponds to the first FAhA of
   the series, not the last one, So "ri'u ga'u ko'a" will break down as "ri'u
    ko'a ga'u zo'e", not as "ri'u zo'e ga'u ko'a". [...] 
 
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On Sun, Apr 13, 2014 at 10:55 AM, Ilmen <ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com> wrote:

> coi ro do,
>
> Is { broda ri'u vi ko'a } equivalent to { broda ri'u zo'e vi ko'a } or to
> { broda ri'u ko'a vi ko'a }?
>

CLL doesn't say it directly, but for the example you give it would probably
go with the latter, since for CLL the sumti complement of VA is the origin
of the "imaginary journey", just as for FAhA, and "FAhA VA" combine to
describe the same leg of the imaginary journey, so naturally they have the
same origin. But for compound tenses that involve two or more FAhA, that is
not the case. Each FAhA describes a new leg of the journey, which starts
where the previous one left off, so they can't all share the same sumti
complement as origin when separated. But the sumti complement of the
compound will be the origin for the first leg of the journey, which
corresponds to the first FAhA of the series, not the last one,  So "ri'u
ga'u ko'a" will break down as "ri'u ko'a ga'u zo'e", not as "ri'u zo'e ga'u
ko'a".

In practice, compound tenses don't normally involve multiple FAhA or
multiple PU, they usually involve a single PU with a ZI, ZEhA or ZAhO, so
the question is not really answered by CLL. My answer is that it is the
last component that grabs the sumti.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Sun, Apr 13, 2014 at 10:55 AM, Ilmen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">coi ro do,<br>
<br>
Is { broda ri&#39;u vi ko&#39;a } equivalent to { broda ri&#39;u zo&#39;e v=
i ko&#39;a } or to { broda ri&#39;u ko&#39;a vi ko&#39;a }?<br></blockquote=
><div>=A0</div><div>CLL doesn&#39;t say it directly, but for the example yo=
u give it would probably go with the latter, since for CLL the sumti comple=
ment of VA is the origin of the &quot;imaginary journey&quot;, just as for =
FAhA, and &quot;FAhA VA&quot; combine to describe the same leg of the imagi=
nary journey, so naturally they have the same origin. But for compound tens=
es that involve two or more FAhA, that is not the case. Each FAhA describes=
 a new leg of the journey, which starts where the previous one left off, so=
 they can&#39;t all share the same sumti complement as origin when separate=
d. But the sumti complement of the compound will be the origin for the firs=
t leg of the journey, which corresponds to the first FAhA of the series, no=
t the last one, =A0So &quot;ri&#39;u ga&#39;u ko&#39;a&quot; will break dow=
n as &quot;ri&#39;u ko&#39;a ga&#39;u zo&#39;e&quot;, not as &quot;ri&#39;u=
 zo&#39;e ga&#39;u ko&#39;a&quot;.<br>
</div><div><br></div><div>In practice, compound tenses don&#39;t normally i=
nvolve multiple FAhA or multiple PU, they usually involve a single PU with =
a ZI, ZEhA or ZAhO, so the question is not really answered by CLL. My answe=
r is that it is the last component that grabs the sumti.</div>
<div><br></div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</div><div><br></div></div></di=
v></div>

<p></p>

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