Received: from mail-we0-f191.google.com ([74.125.82.191]:42535) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WZYWs-0004m0-P5 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 13 Apr 2014 21:30:07 -0700 Received: by mail-we0-f191.google.com with SMTP id p61sf563732wes.28 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 2014 21:29:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=6ckXgcdxoAPa42KdhzgJtbGYrI++JMTxsDiZI3R1z1Q=; b=rkeLMcr9CG2O/DuXOJEh4D4ZuSfkzOl6csX7WDR6FiiDF+1hYJSH1mo4JRLqdFal8r 4AitLUkIQ6xRRKgbUyQCnqh2XAOIXJFT4r0VoQQBdwvEBPo3oxzWWgJm/4O2nwaSMVEB /nT+S5hiRibafjYQQ4Mr/SUQm1NnAFggm6SiL06pob5Qb2RMttNQ8n152D3HHhDyquAz /ihqIb2UtNIPxXDGUDubAzCBbv+M0DovCGaboDh+jA2Y0WlncbEaM+BpLq0+O7uqfEA1 yq2THgEZ9gLdSWmXLJYhY8TBiYmsI4d/URfmiIVRD6hWZmYhR9ctE+s7K91KTsfvx/S5 M1MQ== X-Received: by 10.180.160.241 with SMTP id xn17mr43479wib.2.1397449790843; Sun, 13 Apr 2014 21:29:50 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.36.74 with SMTP id o10ls227004wij.45.canary; Sun, 13 Apr 2014 21:29:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.108.237 with SMTP id hn13mr673535wib.2.1397449790252; Sun, 13 Apr 2014 21:29:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x22b.google.com (mail-we0-x22b.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c03::22b]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id bz11si70760wib.3.2014.04.13.21.29.50 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 13 Apr 2014 21:29:50 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::22b as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c03::22b; Received: by mail-we0-f171.google.com with SMTP id t61so7655470wes.30 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 2014 21:29:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.97.37 with SMTP id dx5mr7860456wib.53.1397449790135; Sun, 13 Apr 2014 21:29:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.25.163 with HTTP; Sun, 13 Apr 2014 21:29:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <534A975C.6070304@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 08:29:50 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Tag compounds' semantics From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::22b as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d041825e05521ff04f6f92213 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --f46d041825e05521ff04f6f92213 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2014-04-13 20:43 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : > > On Sun, Apr 13, 2014 at 10:55 AM, Ilmen wrote: > >> coi ro do, >> >> Is { broda ri'u vi ko'a } equivalent to { broda ri'u zo'e vi ko'a } or t= o >> { broda ri'u ko'a vi ko'a }? >> > > CLL doesn't say it directly, but for the example you give it would > probably go with the latter, since for CLL the sumti complement of VA is > the origin of the "imaginary journey", just as for FAhA, and "FAhA VA" > combine to describe the same leg of the imaginary journey, so naturally > they have the same origin. But for compound tenses that involve two or mo= re > FAhA, that is not the case. Each FAhA describes a new leg of the journey, > which starts where the previous one left off, so they can't all share the > same sumti complement as origin when separated. But the sumti complement = of > the compound will be the origin for the first leg of the journey, which > corresponds to the first FAhA of the series, not the last one, So "ri'u > ga'u ko'a" will break down as "ri'u ko'a ga'u zo'e", not as "ri'u zo'e ga= 'u > ko'a". > > In practice, compound tenses don't normally involve multiple FAhA or > multiple PU, they usually involve a single PU with a ZI, ZEhA or ZAhO, so > the question is not really answered by CLL. My answer is that it is the > last component that grabs the sumti. > This example happens in L4B and is not on the Errata page. I understood {ko'a sanli ri'u vi la meiris.} as "He stands to the right of me near Mary" whereas {ko'a sanli ri'u je vi la meiris.} would mean "He stands just to the right of Mary", the meaning that L4B showed in the English sentence. http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/less6space.html > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --f46d041825e05521ff04f6f92213 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



2014-04-13 20:43 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas &l= t;jjllambias@gmai= l.com>:

On Sun, Apr 13, 2014 at 10:55 AM, Ilmen &= lt;ilmen.pokeb= ip@gmail.com> wrote:
coi ro do,

Is { broda ri'u vi ko'a } equivalent to { broda ri'u zo'e v= i ko'a } or to { broda ri'u ko'a vi ko'a }?
=C2=A0
CLL doesn't say it directly, but for the e= xample you give it would probably go with the latter, since for CLL the sum= ti complement of VA is the origin of the "imaginary journey", jus= t as for FAhA, and "FAhA VA" combine to describe the same leg of = the imaginary journey, so naturally they have the same origin. But for comp= ound tenses that involve two or more FAhA, that is not the case. Each FAhA = describes a new leg of the journey, which starts where the previous one lef= t off, so they can't all share the same sumti complement as origin when= separated. But the sumti complement of the compound will be the origin for= the first leg of the journey, which corresponds to the first FAhA of the s= eries, not the last one, =C2=A0So "ri'u ga'u ko'a" wi= ll break down as "ri'u ko'a ga'u zo'e", not as &q= uot;ri'u zo'e ga'u ko'a".

In practice, compound tenses don't normally i= nvolve multiple FAhA or multiple PU, they usually involve a single PU with = a ZI, ZEhA or ZAhO, so the question is not really answered by CLL. My answe= r is that it is the last component that grabs the sumti.

This example happens in = L4B and is not on the Errata page.
I understood {ko'a sanli r= i'u vi la meiris.} =C2=A0as "He stands to the right of me near Mar= y"
whereas
{ko'a sanli ri'u je vi la meiris.} =C2= =A0would mean "He stands just to the right of Mary", the meaning = that L4B showed in the English sentence.


mu'o mi'e xorxes

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