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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 22:05:37 +0200
From: Ilmen <ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] vamji
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On 13/04/2014 20:26, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote:
>
> On Sun, Apr 13, 2014 at 1:32 PM, Ilmen <ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com=20
> <mailto:ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
>     Could somebody enlighten me by providing a couple of example
>     sentences using all of {vamji}'s argument places? (Preferably not
>     for monetary value usages, as {jdima} is a better word for that
>     purpose.)
>
>
> The x4 is kind of forced, but I understand it as this:
>
>   lo vi cukta cu se vamji lo mutce mi lo nu tadni
>   This book is worth a lot to me for studying.
Mmh this looks like an use of {vajni}. I'd have expected [This book] to=20
be a sumti raising (jai...).

>
>     For example, how would you translate =ABThe film is well worth
>     seeing.=BB in Lojban?
>
>
> I would say that's an example of so-called "tough movement" in English:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tough_movement
>
> It could be paraphrased as "It is well worth seeing the film." which=20
> would go into Lojban as:
>
>      lo nu catlu lo skina cu se vamji lo mutce
>
> Now to raise "lo skina" to the main clause you would need:
>
>     lo skina cu jai se vamji lo mutce fai lo ka catlu ce'u
>
> so the corresponding -able/-ible suffix is as simple as -jaxselva'i  :)
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>

In your previous example, you used an object as vamji-2, and now you're=20
using an event. I still don't understand the nature and role of vamji's=20
arguments and how they relate to each other.
This gismu seems to be bloated; I don't see why 4 core arguments are=20
necessary.

Perhaps the relation between vamji-1 and vamji-2 is similar to that=20
between dukse-2 and dukse-1 (respectively)? Otherwise I don't see what=20
vamji-1 is all about.

The corpus usage of vamji-1 seems somewhat inconsistent:

.=20
https://www.alexburka.com/~danr/#?stats_reduce=3Dword&cqp=3D[tags%20_%3D%20=
%22vamji1%22]&search_tab=3D1&within=3Dsentence&hpp=3D100&search=3Dcqp=20
<https://www.alexburka.com/%7Edanr/#?stats_reduce=3Dword&cqp=3D[tags%20_%3D=
%20%22vamji1%22]&search_tab=3D1&within=3Dsentence&hpp=3D100&search=3Dcqp>


I wonder how you would have defined vamji's argument structure if you=20
had never seen vamji's definition as it stands in the gimste.

mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o

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<html>
  <head>
    <meta content=3D"text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1"
      http-equiv=3D"Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
    <br>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 13/04/2014 20:26, Jorge Llamb&iacute;=
as
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite=3D"mid:CAO7tK2fqk3G=3DP92GT9sLPWnyrATG2NYT=3Dr7Z57Pv5bY8N2aXoA@mail.gm=
ail.com"
      type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">
        <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
          <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Apr 13, 2014 at 1:32 PM,
            Ilmen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
                href=3D"mailto:ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">i=
lmen.pokebip@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>
            wrote:
            <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-=
style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000"> <br>
                Could somebody enlighten me by providing a couple of
                example sentences using all of {vamji}'s argument
                places? (Preferably not for monetary value usages, as
                {jdima} is a better word for that purpose.)<br>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>The x4 is kind of forced, but I understand it as this:</di=
v>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>&nbsp; lo vi cukta cu se vamji lo mutce mi lo nu tadni</di=
v>
            <div>&nbsp; This book is worth a lot to me for studying.</div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    Mmh this looks like an use of {vajni}. I'd have expected [This book]
    to be a sumti raising (jai...).<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite=3D"mid:CAO7tK2fqk3G=3DP92GT9sLPWnyrATG2NYT=3Dr7Z57Pv5bY8N2aXoA@mail.gm=
ail.com"
      type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">
        <div class=3D"gmail_extra">
          <div class=3D"gmail_quote">
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-=
style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000"> For example, how
                would you translate &laquo;The film is well worth seeing.&r=
aquo; in
                Lojban?<br>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>I would say that's an example of so-called "tough
              movement" in English:</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>&nbsp;<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
                href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tough_movement">http:/=
/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tough_movement</a></div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>It could be paraphrased as "It is well worth seeing the
              film." which would go into Lojban as:</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;lo nu catlu lo skina cu se vamji lo mu=
tce</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>
              Now to raise "lo skina" to the main clause you would need:</d=
iv>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>&nbsp; &nbsp; lo skina cu jai se vamji lo mutce fai lo ka =
catlu
              ce'u</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>so the corresponding -able/-ible suffix is as simple as
              -jaxselva'i &nbsp;:)</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>mu'o mi'e xorxes</div>
            <br>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    In your previous example, you used an object as vamji-2, and now
    you're using an event. I still don't understand the nature and role
    of vamji's arguments and how they relate to each other.<br>
    This gismu seems to be bloated; I don't see why 4 core arguments are
    necessary.<br>
    <br>
    Perhaps the relation between vamji-1 and vamji-2 is similar to that
    between dukse-2 and dukse-1 (respectively)? Otherwise I don't see
    what vamji-1 is all about.<br>
    <br>
    The corpus usage of vamji-1 seems somewhat inconsistent:<br>
    <br>
    &#8226; <a
href=3D"https://www.alexburka.com/%7Edanr/#?stats_reduce=3Dword&amp;cqp=3D[=
tags%20_%3D%20%22vamji1%22]&amp;search_tab=3D1&amp;within=3Dsentence&amp;hp=
p=3D100&amp;search=3Dcqp">https://www.alexburka.com/~danr/#?stats_reduce=3D=
word&amp;cqp=3D[tags%20_%3D%20%22vamji1%22]&amp;search_tab=3D1&amp;within=
=3Dsentence&amp;hpp=3D100&amp;search=3Dcqp</a><br>
    <br>
    <br>
    I wonder how you would have defined vamji's argument structure if
    you had never seen vamji's definition as it stands in the gimste.<br>
    <br>
    mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o<br>
    <br>
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</html>

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