Received: from mail-qc0-f183.google.com ([209.85.216.183]:33683) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WZpXj-0003wl-Ht for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 15:40:12 -0700 Received: by mail-qc0-f183.google.com with SMTP id m20sf1901183qcx.20 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 15:39:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=wKkEp4qlcu1wTGYkJYdAMrg5niBM/JCpPbO9uF+JtOE=; b=X2XzXZc+5Q5TZl25vz4V7YWs6BONbms83RcMEpN+BtPSEBF5JvzsgA2soGXvGFtcEG H3OcexxMw2kQjRvZirnGRdYFKKCbOouCCjcQsHUU942tnx84tgdZa2N4bUgiRrQaiA23 72hJQiQlAyw3UEMWpvaq0LmgrKeWHXji1HRFIhklwyGEHtyyv6O9r+aJhaTdZ9mxoKu3 zZws/hzFr2Q33ag2JoVoZPjidEQDjx9L08BGCKvrESSshnC6y1ZKoxUb0b9rmLIm1Q9b Pe6ac1e/RfIEy3X4PVkCdKmADJjFF97VIT41zL7q8iCc6bwBDGgiyWdjyJsNmwcSMvx7 SVbA== X-Received: by 10.140.20.75 with SMTP id 69mr116486qgi.17.1397515193179; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 15:39:53 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.20.138 with SMTP id 10ls2927041qgj.92.gmail; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 15:39:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.58.154.228 with SMTP id vr4mr22586286veb.0.1397515192866; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 15:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-x231.google.com (mail-vc0-x231.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c03::231]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id on5si4345204vdb.0.2014.04.14.15.39.52 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 14 Apr 2014 15:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::231 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c03::231; Received: by mail-vc0-x231.google.com with SMTP id if17so8102891vcb.36 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 15:39:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.52.164.237 with SMTP id yt13mr32815640vdb.18.1397515192765; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 15:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.170.73 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 15:39:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <534C3F91.1040806@gmail.com> References: <534ABC27.4000309@gmail.com> <534C3F91.1040806@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 19:39:52 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] vamji From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::231 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2c1d2a213bb04f7085c17 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --001a11c2c1d2a213bb04f7085c17 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 5:05 PM, Ilmen wrote: > > On 13/04/2014 20:26, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas wrote: > > lo vi cukta cu se vamji lo mutce mi lo nu tadni > This book is worth a lot to me for studying. > > Mmh this looks like an use of {vajni}. > "vajni" has 3 places, but "ko'a vajni ko'e ko'i" can be similar to "lo mutce cu vamji ko'a ko'e ko'i", I agree. > In your previous example, you used an object as vamji-2, and now you're > using an event. > Yes, I think both events and objects can be valuable. Objects and events both exist in space-time, the main difference between them being that objects tend to be relatively well defined in space with fuzzy temporal borders while events are relatively well defined in time with fuzzy spatial borders. > I still don't understand the nature and role of vamji's arguments and how > they relate to each other. > x3 is a person. x2 is something that x3 can use for x4. Those three places don't seem problematic. x1 is the difficult one, since it's a measure of x2 and measures are hard to do in Lojban. I suppose x1 can be how much x3 is ready to endure in exchange for obtaining x2. I have often used "se vamji lo raktu" for "be worth the trouble". > This gismu seems to be bloated; I don't see why 4 core arguments are > necessary. > No argument there. Perhaps the relation between vamji-1 and vamji-2 is similar to that between > dukse-2 and dukse-1 (respectively)? Otherwise I don't see what vamji-1 is > all about. > To me dukse-2 is just a property of dukse-1, like mutce-2, milxe-2, etc. I think vamji-1 is how much vamji-3 is willing to give up (if it's something good) or endure (if it's bad) in order to obtain (or retain) vamji-2. vamji-1 is something that is put on the scale to be weighed against vamji-2. The benefits of vamji-2 compensate the costs of vamji-1. "vamji" is similar to "jdima". The difference between them is that jdima-1 is what jdima-3 MUST give up/endure in exchange for jdima-2, while vamji-1 is what vamji-3 IS WILLING TO give up/endure in exchange for vamji-2. That's why you can say "lo vamji be ko'a bei mi cu zmadu/mleca lo jdima be ko'a bei mi". > I wonder how you would have defined vamji's argument structure if you had > never seen vamji's definition as it stands in the gimste. > I'm probably already too contaminated by it to contemplate that, but I'd probably drop x4, at least. :) I would also like a gismu meaning "x1 is worth x2-ing, x1 is x2-able, x1 estas x2-inda", but I don't think vamji as it stands is it. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11c2c1d2a213bb04f7085c17 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 5:05 PM, Ilmen <ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
=20 =20 =20

On 13/04/2014 20:26, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas wrote:
=C2=A0 lo vi cukta cu se vamji lo mutce mi lo nu tadni
=C2=A0 This book is worth a lot to me for studying.
Mmh this looks like an use of {vajni}.

"vajni" has 3 places, but "ko'a vajni ko'e ko= 'i" can be similar to "lo mutce cu vamji ko'a ko'e ko= 'i", I agree.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
In your previous example, you used an object as vamji-2, and now you're using an event.

Yes, = I think both events and objects can be valuable. Objects and events both ex= ist in space-time, the main difference between them being that objects tend= to be relatively well defined in space with fuzzy temporal borders while e= vents are relatively well defined in time with fuzzy spatial borders.

=C2=A0
I still don't understand the nature and role of vamji's arguments and how they relate to each other.

x3 is a person. x2 is something that x3 can = use for x4. Those three places don't seem problematic. x1 is the diffic= ult one, since it's a measure of x2 and measures are hard to do in Lojb= an. I suppose x1 can be how much x3 is ready to endure in exchange for obta= ining x2. I have often used "se vamji lo raktu" for "be wort= h the trouble".=C2=A0
=C2=A0
This gismu seems to be bloated; I don't see why 4 core arguments ar= e necessary.

No argument there.= =C2=A0

Perhaps the relation between vamji-1 and vamji-2 is similar to that between dukse-2 and dukse-1 (respectively)? Otherwise I don't see what vamji-1 is all about.

To= me dukse-2 is just a property of dukse-1, like mutce-2, milxe-2, etc. I th= ink vamji-1 is how much vamji-3 is willing to give up (if it's somethin= g good) =C2=A0or endure (if it's bad) in order to obtain (or retain) va= mji-2. vamji-1 is something that is put on the scale to be weighed against = vamji-2. The benefits of vamji-2 compensate the costs of vamji-1.

"vamji" is similar to "jdima". The = difference between them is that jdima-1 is what jdima-3 MUST give up/endure= in exchange for jdima-2, while vamji-1 is what vamji-3 IS WILLING TO give = up/endure in exchange for vamji-2. That's why you can say "lo vamj= i be ko'a bei mi cu zmadu/mleca lo jdima be ko'a bei mi".=C2= =A0

=C2=A0
I wonder how you would have defined vamji's argument structure if you had never seen vamji's definition as it stands in the gimste.

I'm probably already too contamina= ted by it to contemplate that, but I'd probably drop x4, at least. :)

I would also like a gismu meaning "x1 is worth x2-= ing, x1 is x2-able, x1 estas x2-inda", but I don't think vamji as = it stands is it.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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